Mormon Follow-up


#1

Earlier this week I mentioned that a couple of Mormon missionaries had contacted me and I agreed to meet with them yesterday. I asked those on the message board for advice, so I thought I’d give an update on how the conversation went, in case it helps anyone else. First off, after a brief prayer (I led) and five minute conversation about my newly finished basement, I brought up my most important question: in the book EXECUTIONER’S SONG, author Norman Mailer makes a couple references to “Mormon-style creme pies”. Do Mormon’s have a special creme pie they’re not telling the rest of us about, I asked. Niether knew, but promised to check into it.
Next, I explained that I was a firm Catholic, but was open enough to hear first-hand about their faith. Elder Hoight invited me to tell about my journey, and remembering how many on this board emphasized the subjective nature of Morman religious conviction, I centered my discussion around the fact that I had always been frustrated with people who chose a religion because it “felt right”, bringing up the Heaven’s Gate Cult folks, who “felt” the right thing to do was to commit suicide during an eclipse. I explained how nice it was to be able to refer back to the earlier Christians - some from the first century - and see how their writings were actually Catholic, but told them that I was aware of their theory of the great apostasy. Elder Hoight agree that the “true” church had to be either Catholic or Mormon. It didn’t seem like Elder Ven liked that. He didn’t say as much and seemed to sense my game-plan.
I let them give their testimony for twenty minutes or so and then started playing devil’s advocate, but I made sure to preface every question with “I’m not trying to antagonize you, please understand”, or “I don’t mean to be difficult, but exploring another faith makes me ask questions like that.” I was overly apologetic as I questioned them, because I knew they would leave if I seemed to be just attempting to convert them.
Some of our discussion (more politely worded) included:
How do we know Joseph Smith was anymore authentic than, say, Mary Baker Eddy or Jim Jones or David Koresh? How could we be sure? We get a feeling inside from the spirit, they answered. I reminded them that the Heaven’s Gate Cult people probably went by the same evidence.
They pointed out that you can test your faith by living as a Mormon for a few months and see how it feels. I pointed out that a Catholic scholar, Blaise Paschal (sp?) had proposed a similar concept.
How come, I asked, despite Matthew 16:18, Christ’s teaching fell apart within a few years, but a less anticipate and miraculous prophet like Smith couple establish one that has lasted so long. Elder Ven got a little irritated here and insisted that he didn’t just “make up” everything in BOM. I assured him I wasn’t saying that, and Elder Hoight gave me the “you will know them by their fruits” argument, and pointed out how true that must be when I look at the changes in my life since becoming a Catholic.
I talked about the historical evidence for so much in the Bible and asked if their are any Mormon historical digs (from the great battles) my wife and I could visit as we travel in the states. They didn’t know of any, but would check into it.
Finally I invited them to a Catholic Mass so they could better understand Catholics to help with their missions, but they are forbidden from doing so.
Finally I sent them off, reminding them about the creme pie.
While I don’t know if I made any progress, at least they were with me for over an hour than with someone more vunerable.
God Bless you all for your help. Merry Christmas.


#2

Re

Elder Hoight agree that the “true” church had to be either Catholic or Mormon.

We once had a Catholic presentation on Mormonism at our church which was attended by many Mormons. We achieved fair agreement on where we agreed and where we differed with little rancor.

One significant point that emerged was that the Catholics and Mormons agree that ordination must originate from God and be passed down in a chain of succession from one ordained directly by God.


#3

[quote=Joe Kelley]Re

We once had a Catholic presentation on Mormonism at our church which was attended by many Mormons. We achieved fair agreement on where we agreed and where we differed with little rancor.

One significant point that emerged was that the Catholics and Mormons agree that ordination must originate from God and be passed down in a chain of succession from one ordained directly by God.
[/quote]

You know, don’t you, that there is no “God” (singular) in Mormonism? Mormons believe in a plethora of gods – they have no idea how many – and three separate earth gods: Heavenly Father, his son, Jesus, conceived through intercourse between Heavenly Father and one of his goddess-wives in the spirit world, and born “in the flesh” on earth from Heavenly Father and Mary; and the god, Holy Spirit. These are three separate beings, three separate gods, united only in purpose. So it’s hard to grasp exactly what this “presentation” presented.

Mormons may use the same words as Catholics (and other Christians), but they don’t have the same definitions. When we each say “Jesus,” for example, we’re talking about two completely different persons.

Mormonism is not Christian. It fails the first test: monotheism.

JMJ Jay


#4

[quote=awfulthings9]Earlier this week I mentioned that a couple of Mormon missionaries had contacted me and I agreed to meet with them yesterday . . . First off . . . . Norman Mailer makes a couple references to “Mormon-style creme pies”. Do Mormon’s have a special creme pie they’re not telling the rest of us about, I asked. Niether knew, but promised to check into it.
[/quote]

Who knows what this is. It may be something created by a Latter-day Saint for a contest, it may be something that was created by an LDS person during a period of hardship or shortage (as in the Great Depression), or it may simply be a regional variation on creme pies which were so-called because they are found mainly in Mormon-occupied parts of the country. Mormon women are more likely than most to be full-time housewives and they have their own organization–Women’s Relief Society–which teaches cooking, has cook-offs and bake-offs and so forth and just generally do the kinds of things that most people’s wives and mothers did some twenty or thirty years ago when very few women worked outside the home.

Next, I explained that I was a firm Catholic, but was open enough to hear first-hand about their faith. Elder Hoight invited me to tell about my journey, and remembering how many on this board emphasized the subjective nature of Morman religious conviction, I centered my discussion around the fact that I had always been frustrated with people who chose a religion because it “felt right”, bringing up the Heaven’s Gate Cult folks, who “felt” the right thing to do was to commit suicide during an eclipse . . . Elder Hoight agree that the “true” church had to be either Catholic or Mormon. It didn’t seem like Elder Ven liked that. He didn’t say as much and seemed to sense my game-plan.

I doubt that they perceive their beliefs as purely subjective. They consider their beliefs to be ‘knowledge’ not opinion. So far as they’re concerned, their religious beliefs are as ‘real’ as anything else they know about in the world. Typically the ‘Senior Elder’ does more of the talking–the ‘junior elder’ is supposed to concentrate upon praying silently for the Investigator and talks a great deal less. This sometimes makes them seem a bit more ‘surly’.

I let them give their testimony for twenty minutes or so and then started playing devil’s advocate, but I made sure to preface every question with “I’m not trying to antagonize you, please understand”, or “I don’t mean to be difficult, but exploring another faith makes me ask questions like that.” . . . . Some of our discussion (more politely worded) included:
How do we know Joseph Smith was anymore authentic than, say, Mary Baker Eddy or Jim Jones or David Koresh? How could we be sure? We get a feeling inside from the spirit, they answered. I reminded them that the Heaven’s Gate Cult people probably went by the same evidence.

Good point to drive home. How deeply it will sink in is tough to know but they do need to be reminded periodically that there are plenty of people with subjective opinions which are different from their own.

They pointed out that you can test your faith by living as a Mormon for a few months and see how it feels. I pointed out that a Catholic scholar, Blaise Paschal (sp?) had proposed a similar concept.

You can ‘test’ the truth of Buddhism by living as a Buddhist for a few months. Youcan ‘test’ Hinduism by living as a Hindu. You can ‘test’ the innumerable other religions of the world and then–since each world religion has innumerable sectaries and divisions–you can ‘test’ each of these. How long will ye halt between ten thousand opinions?

How come, I asked, despite Matthew 16:18, Christ’s teaching fell apart within a few years, but a less anticipate and miraculous prophet like Smith couple establish one that has lasted so long. Elder Ven got a little irritated here and insisted that he didn’t just “make up” everything in BOM. I assured him I wasn’t saying that, and Elder Hoight gave me the “you will know them by their fruits” argument, and pointed out how true that must be when I look at the changes in my life since becoming a Catholic.

And of course there are plenty of Buddhists, Hindus, et al whose fruits are also ‘very good’ even by our own Western standards. And does one measure the ‘fruits’ Mormonism by good Mormons or bad ones? By it’s high emphasis upon ‘family values’ or by the research which shows a very high incidence of suicide and mental illness among Mormons?


#5

I talked about the historical evidence for so much in the Bible and asked if there are any Mormon historical digs (from the great battles) my wife and I could visit as we travel in the states. They didn’t know of any, but would check into it.

They will likely as not introduce you to Hugh Nibley, James Talmage, FAIR/LDS (like a Mormon ‘Catholic Answers’) or one of the innumerable writers who have collected assorted and sundry ‘evidences’ for the BofM. Meridian Magazine (an LDS e-zine) is offering a ‘Book of Mormon’ tour this winter, believe it or not.

Finally I invited them to a Catholic Mass so they could better understand Catholics to help with their missions, but they are forbidden from doing so.

Not really. I’ve seen LDS Missionaries at non-LDS religious events and services. They may have to get permission from their local Mission President or they may simply have given you the ‘strict interpretation’ of their rules, because you’re obvously ill-disposed to them already. Different ‘Missions’ may have different rules or different interpretations of the guidelines which emanate from Salt Lake City. They probably aren’t lying, just not willing to invest time in someone not clearly sincere. And they may have attended Catholic services already.

Finally I sent them off, reminding them about the creme pie.
While I don’t know if I made any progress, at least they were with me for over an hour than with someone more vunerable.
God Bless you all for your help. Merry Christmas.

Dunno if they’ll ‘follow up’ with you or not. Did they leave a Book of Mormon along with a ‘reading assignment’? Did they make another appointment to come by? If not–they’ll possibly call back to see if you’re still interested, and they probably ‘won’t find out’ anything about ‘Mormon Creme Pies’–they likely as not won’t ask anyone. You may never hear from them again, unless you call them. If they made no appointments and didn’t leave you their phone #–they’re not going to initiate further contact until you display a ‘more teachable spirit’. As I said previously, they’re not out to engage people in debate. They’ll write you off as someone who covenanted in Pre-Mortal Existence to go to the Telestial or Terrestial kingdom, rather than to the Celestial kingdom of Heaven. You may change your mind in this life or in ‘Spirit Prison’, but if not–well, Mormons are out looking to convert those who are seeking Celestial glory.


#6

[quote=flameburns623]Meridian Magazine (an LDS e-zine) is offering a ‘Book of Mormon’ tour this winter, believe it or not.
[/quote]

I wonder where the tour goes, since none of the New World locations described in the Book of Mormon have ever been found.


#7

This was posted to me today 26th 2004 about Mormons, as we have just have mainly Protestant and Catholic here in Ireland, can someone tell me what is going on here ?
Is this true ?
[/font]Truth About Mormonism
sc.groups.msn.com/tn/44/C2/MormonChat/1b/93.jpghttp://sc.groups.msn.com/img/R9c/c.gif[/font]**Mormon Occultic endowment Ceremony **sc.groups.msn.com/tn/44/C2/MormonChat/1b/94.jpghttp://sc.groups.msn.com/img/R9c/c.gif[/font]**Satanic Pentagrams on SLC Temple **sc.groups.msn.com/tn/44/C2/MormonChat/1b/95.jpghttp://sc.groups.msn.com/img/R9c/c.gif[/font]**Mormon Temple Rites of Death **sc.groups.msn.com/tn/44/C2/MormonChat/1b/96.jpghttp://sc.groups.msn.com/img/R9c/c.gif


#8

Our separated brethren in the Mormon church certainly have different theological concepts than what we do, but just in my opinion, they tend to have a much more congenial attitude than the darn fundamentalists.

I 've chatted briefly with the “elders” (why they are called elders when they look like they don’t even shave yet baffles me) and they seem to be fine young men.


#9

It sounds like you did a great job. Others have pointed out that logic alone is not persuasive to Mormons and that it is a feeling based religion.

This would seem to presuppose that the best that you could hope for accomplishing with such a discussion is getting a few ideas established that hopefully will be built upon through further experience. Who knows where the breaking point will come? Perhaps the LDS “feeling” may wear off. However it may come, if it does, you’ve laid out the groundwork that can lead them to the faith.

Judging by all the former LDS websites out there many people do snap out of it.


#10

[quote=Stephen-Maguire]This was posted to me today 26th 2004 about Mormons, as we have just have mainly Protestant and Catholic here in Ireland, can someone tell me what is going on here ?
Is this true ?
http://sc.groups.msn.com/img/R9c/c.gif
[/quote]

The short answer is that LDS is a variant of Freemasonry.

If you do a search this topic has been well covered at this forum.


#11

[quote=Stephen-Maguire]This was posted to me today 26th 2004 about Mormons, as we have just have mainly Protestant and Catholic here in Ireland, can someone tell me what is going on here ?
Is this true ?
[/quote]

Fair warning. DO NOT rely on reported temple rite ‘exposes’ particularly not online. Mormons will not discuss temple rites with you and inaccurate material–a sustantial portion of the extant material is highly inaccurate–simply confirms that you are “motivated by satanic hatred to persecute Mormons”. I’m describing how you will be perceived, not claimng this is your true motivation. You will lose any hope of truly communicating with any moderately well-informed Mormon.

In any case, sensationalism is not a sound basis for teaching the Christian faith. Learn your OWN faith well. Learn to explain it well. Learn how the Trinity can be distinguished from the historic heresies such as Arianism, Modalism, tri-Theism, and so forth. And so on down through the list of major Christian doctrines. Equip yourself to be able to teach and to explain Christian theology and you won’t NEED to engage in tabloidesque attacks on other faiths.


#12

[quote=Chris-WA]I wonder where the tour goes, since none of the New World locations described in the Book of Mormon have ever been found.
[/quote]

Here’s your answer:

meridianmagazine.com/travel/031001cruise.html

Enjoy the trip!


#13

I’m not interested in running down there beliefs, this was posted up on MSN groups, there is a lot of Mormon discussion on there.
There has been a lot of sensationalist stuff posted up here about the Catholic faith, trying to plant the seed of doubth to converts and cradle Catholics.
Well they can forget about it, this one here isn’t for changing.
Yes thanks I might give the search a try, but in the end I’m not the slightest bit interested in Mormonism, but was wondering was the above true.


#14

Hopefully you have planted that seemingly “oh so difficult” seed of searching for the truth.


#15

[quote=Stephen-Maguire] but was wondering was the above true.
[/quote]

Not sure on all of it, but I have a friend who talked about the sacred underwear.
She was very sad to have to return them when she left the Mormon church. She said they were special to her.

MC


#16

[quote=aimekuelmc]Not sure on all of it, but I have a friend who talked about the sacred underwear.
She was very sad to have to return them when she left the Mormon church. She said they were special to her.

MC
[/quote]

I live near the mormon temple in mesa az. I grew up around mormons. I’ve known one or two that will admit that their grandfather or parents have worn them but for the most part it’s an admitted part of their faith kept well on the download. I’ve heard variations of how often they are worn and where. I’ve heard that a person of a certain rank must never go to bed without them. I’ve also heard they are rarely worn and only on certain occassions and always within the temple. I’ve never heard of them being plain white like the ones in the pic. They are always described as having sacred symbology all over them. The mormon religion creates societies within societies that are exclusive and require certain types of initiations into them. there are levels of secrets about the religion that is revealed only to the mormons within a certain level… if I remember correctly this imitates the real heavens in their theology. Mormons aspire to a squeeky clean image as citizens. They focus on health, and the body is meant to be an efficient tool always ready to be utilized. No alcohol no cigarettes , no coffee, nothing that will damage the efficiency of the body and hinder the soul. I admire their discipline and attitude toward duty. I could go on but…anyway… how do you place an icon right here-------->http://forums.catholic.com/images/icons/icon11.gif


#17

[quote=flameburns623]Here’s your answer:

meridianmagazine.com/travel/031001cruise.html

Enjoy the trip!
[/quote]

I checked out the site. Interesting to note that everytime they mention touring a Book of Mormon location, they call it a “candidate” site for this or that from the Book of Mormon. In other words, no confirmed locations, just possible “candidate” sites. Until somebody finds some ancient “reformed Egyptian” writing down there listing some names or places from the Book of Mormon, it will be hard to give Book of Mormon archeology much credence. Heck, if the Nephites were able to produce the 600+ page Book of Mormon, why don’t they seem to ever have written anything else? You would think that a civilization as advanced as the Nephites would have written something that we could find today. That’s a real head-scratcher.


#18

[quote=Chris-WA]I checked out the site. Interesting to note that everytime they mention touring a Book of Mormon location, they call it a “candidate” site for this or that from the Book of Mormon. In other words, no confirmed locations, just possible “candidate” sites. Until somebody finds some ancient “reformed Egyptian” writing down there listing some names or places from the Book of Mormon, it will be hard to give Book of Mormon archeology much credence. Heck, if the Nephites were able to produce the 600+ page Book of Mormon, why don’t they seem to ever have written anything else? You would think that a civilization as advanced as the Nephites would have written something that we could find today. That’s a real head-scratcher.
[/quote]

:yup: :clapping: :yup: :clapping: :yup: :clapping: :yup: :clapping:


#19

[quote=Chris-WA]I checked out the site. Interesting to note that everytime they mention touring a Book of Mormon location, they call it a “candidate” site for this or that from the Book of Mormon. In other words, no confirmed locations, just possible “candidate” sites. Until somebody finds some ancient “reformed Egyptian” writing down there listing some names or places from the Book of Mormon, it will be hard to give Book of Mormon archeology much credence. Heck, if the Nephites were able to produce the 600+ page Book of Mormon, why don’t they seem to ever have written anything else? You would think that a civilization as advanced as the Nephites would have written something that we could find today. That’s a real head-scratcher.
[/quote]

I’ve heard second hand of a DNA study done to find evidence of a Jewish heritage in the Aztec or Mayan bloodline. The results were negative. Maybe a google search would find it.


#20

i talk to mormons on a regular basis and they have said either the Catholic or mormon church is correct. They do think that once the apostles died than no one was able to preach the word.


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