One thing I have a hard time doing is wrapping my head around the idea that Mormons use store bought bread and water for Sacrament. I will be honest even when I was Mormon it was hard to get used to. I was Catholic before and honestly they cannot be compared.
Store bought bread and water is mild compared to what I have been told by Mormons themselves. How about a juice box and saltine crackers, as was given by a Mormon bishop to someone in the hospital? :eek: (I would have to search through many Mormon threads to find that post, but I will never forget it.)
They have no concept of the true meaning of the Eucharist and believe only symbolically, so I suppose it doesn’t really matter what they use, its pretty much meaningless either way. Of course, this could be extended to most Protestant denominations as well who pass around Wonder Bread and grape juice. I’ve never understood what they really thought they were accomplishing but since they lack the authority to concecrate anyway the point is rather moot.
Since I’m a cradle Catholic, I have no idea what the Mormons do.
I can “sort of” understand why so many Protestant denominations go for grape juice as opposed to wine for their version of communion, but I have a really hard time with store bought, or even homemade, leavened bread: Since the Eucharist was instituted during the Last Supper, or the Day of Preparation before the Passover, no self-respecting first century Jewish home would have had leavened bread in the house! The Day of Preparation, you were supposed to get rid of treyfa (sp?,) according to my Jewish former roommate. It shouldn’t have appeared at the Last Supper, so why would it be consecrated?
And the whole Wonder Bread thing creeps me out, too! I don’t even eat the stuff in a sandwich, let alone the Body of Christ!
I had the same experience, saltine and grape juice at my non denominational service at a baptist church that I attended prior to coming to the forums which lead me to the Catholic faith. Even before I had any concept of the Eucharist or its sanctity, I knew something about this felt wrong. Now in hindsight I feel sad for those people and wish I could try and help them. I pray for them, but that’s all I can do. If I went in there trying to correct them on their false ideology I’d only get tossed out being labeled the anti christ lol
A Romanian Evangelical brother told me that, since in his country the Church was attended also by former alcoholics, they preferred to give the grape juice instead of wine.
Last year, the pastor of the Church that I attended (Pentecostal with huge admiration fon Benny Hinn&co.), allowed the use of grape juice (if you read the ingredients is more water and sugar than real grape juice). He also explained that the use of the juice there’s also in America in churches with former alcoholics, so they don’t fall into temptation.
You can make this when you don’t believe in the real presence of Christ in the wine and in the bread…
I studied with mormon and if I remember well, Doctrine&Alliance, asks you to refrain from alcohol tea coffe. Wine=alcohol so that’s why they use water for the sacrament
The basis behind using bread and water stems from a revelation given to Joseph Smith. Here are his words: .
Early in the month of August Newel Knight and his wife paid us a visit at my place in Harmony, Pennsylvania; and as neither his wife nor mine had been as yet confirmed, it was proposed that we should confirm them, and partake together of the Sacrament, before he and his wife should leave us. In order to prepare for this I set out to procure some wine for the occasion, but had gone only a short distance when I was met by a heavenly messenger, and received the following revelation, the first four paragraphs of which were written at this time, and the remainder in the September following: [D&C 27]. (History of the Church, 1:106.)
Here then are the first four verses of that revelation:
Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your Lord, your God, and your Redeemer, whose word is quick and powerful. For, behold, I say unto you, that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins. Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, that you shall not purchase wine neither strong drink of your enemies; Wherefore, you shall partake of none except it is made new among you; yea, in this my Father’s kingdom which shall be built up on the earth. (D&C27:1-4)
Now if you believe as we do that this revelation was from God then it is clear why we use water instead of wine. It also points to why we regularly use simple store bought bread. Now combine this with the fact that we do not hold transubstantiation as having any validity and I don’t think the LDS sacrament is confusing. Instead it is wonderfully simple as are all ordinances in the LDS church. They are done without ostentation.
Here in USA, Catholic alcoholics should abstain from wine, and it has been customary until recently where the Eucharistic wine is given, that we received only in bread form.
Now with issues in diet, celiac disease is being documented in young children. We have the Wine given at the end of communion where the children come up to the pastor to receive the Lord in the form of wine.
I also am put off by non-denominationals who say they have the sacred meal, but then afterwards everything is thrown into the garbage.
And, another time, I was doing hospice for a cancer patient. The family is protestant. The son came in with their form of sacred bread and wine, heard their prayers from another room, and experienced their faith and goodness in this act. The son place the plate and glass in the kitchen sink. I respectfully washed the two.
Don’t you think Jesus was smart enough that when he instituted the Sacrament of the Eucharist at the Last Supper, he might have actually called it the “Sacrament of the Eucharist” and might have even claimed to be instituting a religious sacrament to be observed in a weekly Mass in the first place? Or are you limiting his intelligence?
Hey, maybe Jesus did mention this stuff, only the guys who wrote it down all those years later were a little bit fuzzy about everything. I mean, there are no original written sources for these gospels, and the ones we do have are from long after the events they allegedly describe. Evidence of corruption of sacred texts from this period is rampant, as there were many factions competing at the time such as Marcionites, Ebionites, Nazarenes, various gnostic groups, and of course the proto-orthodox. They were all calling each other heretics and what not. So who knows?
It’s like listening to my kids argue with each other about their made-up stuff. They use make-believe to hurt each others’ feelings.
JL: In the little non-denominational group, to which I belonged, communion once a year was saltine crackers and grape juice. They were placed on a table in the front of the center isle. We walked up took a cracker poured juice in a cup and moved on. We also had foot washing that day also.
Um he did tell people in a way that was common to him, he was instituting a Sacrament, or don’t you remember where he says, “Take this all of you and eat it.”, or, “unless you eat my flesh you have no life”, "Do this in memory of Me."etc.
Keep in mind, Sacrament of the Eucharist is only one term for Holy Communion.
As far as the Gospel writers being “fuzzy” on what was said, I’m thinking if they were there, and saw and heard what was happening at such a important moment, they would have remembered it.
As far as text corruption, are you saying that the current text of the Bible is wrong? I’m thinking I will trust Biblical scholars are little more. :shrug:
It is clear from the Bible, that 1. Jesus used unleavened bread. 2. He used wine.
Yes. They are uncomplicated and unadorned. And yes this simplicity extends to temple ordnances. Does the temple contain a number of additional ordinances beyond baptism and the sacrament, of course. Could I take them as a whole and try and make a case that together they are complicated. Perhaps. But that is not my point. My point is that each one is focused. Each one does not have extra ornamentation and pomp surrounding it.
Can’t you see the simplicity of the first sacrament when the Savior in the upper room takes bread and breaks it and takes the cup and passes it to the disciples. It is simplicity itself… beautiful.
I can understand your point and perspective regarding the ornaments surrounding the mass and Holy Eucharist. The temples do also have some beautiful ornaments to glorify God and His son. The slashing of one’s throat also remains uncomplicated.
I have personally have a very different experience when I receive the Eucharist from when I partook of the LDS sacrament for ten years. To each its own