Mormonism "currently" the true Church?


#1

Interesting little word slipped in there: “currently.” As if God sits up in heaven spinning a wheel–let’s see which church the arrow points to this morning. Oh–the LDS–OK, you guys get to be the true Church today, and tomorrow maybe it will be the Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit Primitive Baptists!

I do know what you mean by this, but I think it’s an attempt to cover up your obvious lack of historical continuity. It’s utterly unconvincing.

Edwin


#2

What I intended to convey with that was that the Catholic Church was the only true church at one time; but now it has given its plase to the LDS Church. The Protestants don’t count at all!

zerinus


#3

IT Is Joseph Smith And his Peep Stones that do not count

Montanism- , apocalyptic movement of the 2d cent. It arose in Phrygia (c.172) under the leadership of a certain Montanus and two female prophets, Prisca and Maximillia, whose entranced utterances were deemed oracles of the Holy Spirit. They had an immediate expectation of Judgment Day, and they encouraged ecstatic prophesying and strict asceticism. They believed that a Christian fallen from grace could never be redeemed. Prisca claimed that Christ had appeared to her in female form. When she was excommunicated, she exclaimed "I am driven away like the wolf from the sheep. I am no wolf: I am word and spirit and power."
The belief that the prophecies of the Montanists superseded the doctrines proclaimed by the Apostles
education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry/Montanis
newadvent.org/cathen/10521a.htm

  1. Called by its followers “the New Prophecy”, this movement is known to us as Montanism after its founder Montanus, a convert to Christianity. Around the year 170 he began to proclaim to his fellow believers that he was a prophet, that he was the very mouthpiece of that Spirit which the Lord had promised would “teach all things and guide into all truth” (John 14:26; 16:13). Montanus was soon joined by two women, Priscilla and Maximilla who like him delivered oracles in a state of ecstacy, speaking not in their own persons but in that of the Holy Spirit.
  2. Montanus and his companions represented a revival of the apocalyptic spirit and announced the forthcoming end of the world. The Lord was about to return, and the new Jerusalem would be set up in the vicinity of the town of Pepuza in Phrygia. As preparation for the end of all things they purified themselves and cut themselves loose from their attachments to society. The Phrygians, as they were frequently called, fasted longer and more elaborately than other Christians and discouraged marriage.
    theologywebsite.com/history/montanus.shtml

Testing Prophetic Claims
Over the last 200 years a number of people have claimed to be religious prophets with special spiritual authority from God. These include Charles Taze Russell (Jehovah’s Witnesses), Ellen G. White (Seventh-day Adventists), Mary Baker Eddy (Christian Science), and Joseph Smith (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints). Each started an organization which claimed to be the one true Christian Church, each had unique teachings, and each appealed to the Bible to some degree as their basis for spiritual authority. Yet, each “prophet’s” teachings contradict those of the others.
irr.org/MIT/jsfalpro.html

Bilaam was the best potential leader the gentiles had to offer paralleling Moshe in his supreme righteousness. This is why God chose him to be the prophet and leader of the gentiles. But this was all before he became a prophet. Once Bilaam became a prophet, he was spiritually destroyed. He was not able to handle the powerful experience of prophecy and it was at this point that he came to be the wicked Bilaam that we knowBecoming a prophet corrupted him. At Sinai, God chose the Jewish People to be His holy nation and nation of priests, leading humanity to ethics, morals, and proper beliefs. The entire world is expected to fulfill God’s will and the Jews have the responsibility to lead the world on this path. This is the idea of the “Chosen People.” As such, the Jews received prophets to guide them on their journey and responsibility. But how did they achieve the gift of prophets and prophecy?
aish.com/torahportion/kolyaakov/-Success_That_Hurts-.asp


#4

The Seeker Movement
Seekerism existed at the radical end of the Reformation spectrum. Scholars have generally emphasized “the primitive gospel movement” in ante-bellum America, but diverse versions of Christian primitivism already existed in post-Reformation Europe and in England after Henry VIII severed the English churches from the papacy. Justification for reform was usually couched in Primitivistic rhetoric, accusing the Roman church of corrupting the pure gospel, for example. Thus Seekerism–whether in Europe, England, or America–existed within a larger primitive gospel movement. Although the Primitivist movement began in Europe and England, it flourished in the freer environment of post-Revolutionary America.

At first widely scattered, by 1850 the American Primitivists had produced two sects with significant followings: the Disciples of Christ and the Mormons.4 However, these two groups shared competing approaches to the problem of the perceived apostasy from primitive Christianity.

Those in Europe and England who held more radical views–such as Anabaptists, Seekers, Familiests (those in “The Family of Love”), Ranters, and Quakers–were entirely overshadowed by the state churches. The leading Reformers–Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin–attacked the views of the Anabaptists (literally “rebaptizer”), who repudiated infant baptism and Calvinistic predestination, and believed in new revelations, the imminent appearance of Christ, and the establishment of the New Jerusalem.

The use of Primitivist theology by one Church of England divine demonstrates how those in the “right-wing” incorporated radical tenets. When Charles II married the Portuguese princess, Catherine of Braganza, for political purposes, English churchmen were outraged by the alliance with a Catholic nation. In 1662 Charles’s chaplain, Thomas Pierce, delivered a sermon before the king in which he defended the Protestant church and attacked Catholicism

In the latter half of the sixteenth century, the Puritan movement began to call for reform within the Church of England. Puritans believed the Antichrist had corrupted the church but not completely destroyed it, and they sought to “purify” the church by eliminating all Catholic doctrines and practices. They eventually came to see themselves as “a church within a church.” Thomas Cartwright (1535-1603), a leading Puritan, argued that the true church fell when it abandoned the divinely commanded presbyterian form of government

When their goal to transform the Church of England was frustrated, some Puritans formed their own “Separatist” congregations. These Separatist Puritans were eventually driven from England to Holland. However, those who carried the Puritan vision to the shores of New England in 1620 were nonseparating Puritans who had little tolerance for Separatist dissenters.
signaturebookslibrary.org/seekers/chapter1.htm#movement


#5

And on December 6th, 2007, at 3:45pm (Local Cotonou Time), the Kwibobo-zlanga will superceed the LDS due to it’s superior treatment of the concept of “Tqolu-banda”.

…Don’t forget to update your business cards accordingly!


#6

#7

I never said that LDS is a “follower” of RCC. LDS is a “successor” to RCC, which is a different thing. LDS is a new dispensation of the gospel, revealed directly from heaven. It did not emerge from the RCC. And of course, their doctrines (and practices) are going to be different. What would be the point of having a new dispensation of the gospel revealed from heaven, if everything was going to remain unchanged?

zerinus


#8

Failed Prophecies of Joseph Smith
irr.org/mit/jsfalpro.html

"Throughout the ages, there have been so-called ‘private’ revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history.

When the Church approves private revelations, she declares only that there is nothing in them contrary faith or good morals, and that they may be read without danger or even with profit; no obligation is thereby imposed on the faithful to believe them.

catholic-pages.com/bvm/private_revelations.asp
catholicculture.org/docs/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=162
catholicplanet.com/apparitions/discernment.htm

The Devil may give false visions or revelations-Magdalen of the Cross , it all came true–ecstasies, levitation, prophecies, simulated stigmata. At door of death she confessed. Exorcism was needed.

Predictions by falsifiers.-there was an epidemic of prophecy especially on “the great Pope and the great King” inspired by the 17th century commentary on the Apocalypse

catholic-pages.com/bvm/private_revelations.asp

  1. Signs of the evil spirit: (the opposite of the above–spirit of falseness or lie, suggestion of useless things, curious things, impertinent things, darkness, restlessness in the soul, a bold, obstinate spirit, many indiscretions, pride, lack of hope, disobedience, vanity, self-satisfaction, impatience, rebellion of the passions, hypocrisy, pretense, attachment to earthly things, forgetfulness of Christ and of imitating him, a false charity including bitter zeal, indiscretion

Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet…" (Joseph Smith from the Mormon book, History of the Church Vol. 6, pp. 408-409)


#9

I did not say “follower”, I said “follow”. Its almost the same thing as ‘successor’.

but some of these ‘dispensations’ contradict RCC and jewish beliefs. How can two opposing views be true?


#10

Good Question! What is the point. God just likes to shake things up every once in awhile and give us a contradictory set of doctrines?


#11

I wonder what he thinks about islam. Was it also a true church at some point in time? :shrug:


#12

I know you find my thoughts “illogical and incoherent”, but I’ll ask anyway…
On another thread you said that with the death of the last Apostle, the keys were revoked from the established priesthood. I don’t know when, exactly, John died, but if this is true, then the priesthood Jesus Himself established lasted less than 100 years. Joseph Smith, OTOH, made a more significant impression on Christianity with his commission to re-institute the priesthood in 18-whatever, since the LDS are now more than 100 years old.
Boy, that sounds like a very dangerous position to take!


#13

maybe the keys were retracted again and given to L.Ron Hubbard. :shrug: Everyone join in before Scientology’s 100 years is up! :smiley:


#14

BYU Professor Robert Millet noted that not only was the Apostle John still alive, but that “Three “Nephites” mentioned in the Book of Mormon were also living today in a translated state.

“We know from the Book of Mormon (see 3 Nephi 28:6) and from modern revelation (see D&C 7) that John was translated-changed to a terrestrial state so as to no longer be subject to the effects of the Fall, including physical suffering, bodily decay, and death. Like the three Nephites, he is still ministering among the peoples of the earth and will do so until the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, at which time he and they will be changed from mortality to immortality (see 3 Nephi 28:8, 27-30)” (Selected Writings of Robert L. Millet: Gospel Scholars Series, p.85).
mrm.org/topics/introductory-issues/were-christians-just-you


#15

Well, I guess I have no clue what the LDS church teaches about John, but Z told me that with the death of the last apostle the keys were revoked. So, does this mean the last apostle hasn’t died? Does John still hold valid orders? Why would God use Smith if John, an eyewitness to Christ, were still on earth.:confused:


#16

Lying for the Lord refers to the practice of lying to protect the image of and belief in the Mormon religion, a practice which Mormonism itself fosters in various ways. From Joseph Smith’s denial of having more than one wife, to polygamous Mormon missionaries telling European investigators that reports about polygamy in Utah were lies put out by “anti-Mormons” and disgruntled ex-members, to Gordon B. Hinckley’s dishonest equivocation on national television over Mormon doctrine, Mormonism’s history seems replete with examples of lying. Common members see such examples as situations where lying is justified. For the Mormon, loyalty and the welfare of the church are more important than the principle of honesty, and plausible denials and deception by omission are warranted by an opportunity to have the Mormon organization seen in the best possible light. This is part of the larger package of things that lead many to describe Mormonism as a cult. “Lying for the lord” is part of Mormonism’s larger deceptive mainstreaming tactics, and conversion numbers would drastically lower if important Mormon beliefs were fully disclosed to investigators.

mormonwiki.org/index.php?title=Lying_for_the_Lord&

It is clear, in my view, that Joseph Smith behaved in classic philosopher king fashion, and that the Mormon “faithful history” policy discloses a group of modern philosopher kings who feel justified in telling pious lies. “Faithful history” is a form of Mormon censorship. It suppresses all information that does not encourage Mormons to be more obedient to current Mormon leaders. Hence, facts that strongly suggest Smith and other Mormon leaders are not trustworthy are airbrushed out of Mormon consciousness.mccue.cc/bob/spirituality.htm

Former Mormon bishop explains the collapse of his faith
McCue said, “I read Mormon history as the professional historians write it, and realized that my religious leaders had misled me as to how Mormonism started, and [recognized]&a pattern of Mormon leadership deception [that] goes back to Mormonism’s beginnings with Joseph Smith.”
“The suppressed aspects of Mormon history that most troubled me indicated many instances in which Mormon leaders have deceived both their followers and the public about important matters. Joseph Smith was the worst in this regard. His tendency to exaggerate or lie when in a tight spot bears a striking resemblance to the practices of shady stock promoters I have on occasion met relative to my legal practice,” the attorney stated.
“Mormon leaders at the local level are sincere and generally unaware of the issues I had raised,” said McCue. And he says that though he is critical of LDS leaders he knows they can be “genuinely loving.” “They believe God’s will requires that they mislead their followers,” he explained.
rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon164.html

The Mormon Purge
Documenting the plague of Excommunications in the early 1990’s of hundreds of conservative Mormons. Reasons, ramifications, reflections. by Sterling D. Allan
greaterthings.com/Books/MormonPurge/index.html

I found the Mormon temple not at all like I had been taught to believe it would be. The temple ceremony was one of the main reasons I left the Mormon church. I soon realized the Mormon church was not the church I had been told it was or I thought it was. It certainly was not the church of God as I had been told. Many who came to the temple never wanted to come back. It was a very depressing experience for me and my wife and very sickening, especially if one believes that it was designed by God. I was ashamed of having served there, after I found out the truth. I realized I could no longer serve a God who was so changable, violent and deceptive.
home.teleport.com/~packham/temples3.htm


#17

so who’s buried in john tomb? :smiley:


#18

ELVIS


#19

The bolded text above demonstrates the fallacy of this position. The Catholic Church did emerge from Judaism with the advent of Jesus Christ. Jesus did not spontaneously appear outside of Judaism and neither did Christianity. Why? Because God loves His people and wanted to lead those faithful and sincere Jews into the New Covenant, even if it was only a minority of Jews.

LDS did spontaneously appear completely outside of the Church. But it appeared in a manner that did not lead Catholics to it. If the LDS really is supposed to be the “successor” of the Catholic Church, it would have emerged from the Church in a similar way the Church emerged from Judaism. Didn’t God love the faithful Catholics of that time?

A better case would be made for certain Protestant Churches, such as the Lutheran Church, which did form directly from the Catholic Church. None of them, however, claim new Divine revelations.


#20

zerinus…:rotfl:

The Catholic Church has given it’s place to no one, much less the false mormon organization. Joe Smith’s scam is failing, people are bailing out, membership is falling, Catholic conversions from mormonism are booming. You lose.:smiley:


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