Mormons and the Gospel

I had these questions about the Gospel according to Mormons.
Why does the Gospel get mentioned to Adam and Eve in Mormon teaching? I have read that they knew about the Gospel, and that the original sin was no big deal, in fact it was a great thing. Why was sin a good thing?

[quote=Catholic Dude]I had these questions about the Gospel according to Mormons.
Why does the Gospel get mentioned to Adam and Eve in Mormon teaching? I have read that they knew about the Gospel, and that the original sin was no big deal, in fact it was a great thing. Why was sin a good thing?
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To LDS the “fall” was just part of the plan of salvation. God the Father and his heavenly wife had billions of spirit children. These children can only progress so far without coming to Earth, taking on a body and being tested by sin. So, the world needed to be a place where sin and mortality existed. This “fallen” world was to provide the necessary conditions for these spirit children to continue their progression. So, the fall of Adam was completely intentional and a necessary part of God’s plan for his children. LDS believe in the concept of “eternal progression” where we all continue to progress toward Godhood. And, it starts when we are “born” as spirit children in the pre-existence. I may have a few details wrong but I think that’s the jist of it.

Good explanation Tmaque, If not for Adam and Eve’s fall they would still be in the Garden of Eden and the world would not have any people. The fall was pretty necessary to God’s plan I would say. Or maybe, none of us were supposed to be here, and none of this life was supposed to happen. They were just supposed to hang out there for eternity basking in glory. Not a rational thought, to me anyway.
I believe God had a plan in mind when He created the earth and that it included placing man on earth to suffer the temptations of evil, but to have his free agency to choose between right and wrong, and eventually return to Father in Heaven.LDS of course, believe this life is a test to see if we are strong enough to make it back to His presence.
We also believe that Jesus Christ died to atone for the sins of all mankind, so that means that He also atoned for Adam’s sin and therefore after the crucifiction Adam’s sin was atoned for along with all others who had lived before and after Jesus Christ. Therefore we believe we are not born with the sin of Adam upon our heads and are only responsible for our own sins. :slight_smile: BJ

[quote=BJ Colbert]Good explanation Tmaque, If not for Adam and Eve’s fall they would still be in the Garden of Eden and the world would not have any people. The fall was pretty necessary to God’s plan I would say. Or maybe, none of us were supposed to be here, and none of this life was supposed to happen. They were just supposed to hang out there for eternity basking in glory. Not a rational thought, to me anyway.
I believe God had a plan in mind when He created the earth and that it included placing man on earth to suffer the temptations of evil, but to have his free agency to choose between right and wrong, and eventually return to Father in Heaven.LDS of course, believe this life is a test to see if we are strong enough to make it back to His presence.
We also believe that Jesus Christ died to atone for the sins of all mankind, so that means that He also atoned for Adam’s sin and therefore after the crucifiction Adam’s sin was atoned for along with all others who had lived before and after Jesus Christ. Therefore we believe we are not born with the sin of Adam upon our heads and are only responsible for our own sins. :slight_smile: BJ
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How could it be God’s will for Adam and Eve to sin? It is completely against God’s nature to advocate sin. He would be divided against Himself and He would negate eternal attributes of His nature.

And why could not have Adam and Eve had children in their unfallen state? I don’t see anything in scripture that indicates that they were only able to procreate after becoming sinful.

[quote=petra]How could it be God’s will for Adam and Eve to sin? It is completely against God’s nature to advocate sin. He would be divided against Himself and He would negate eternal attributes of His nature.
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To the LDS, God is more like a human being, since he used to be one and then earned his godhood.

[quote=Genesis315]To the LDS, God is more like a human being, since he used to be one and then earned his godhood.
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Yes, but don’t LDS believe that the God of planet Earth is perfect in all aspects? Or does he supposedly retain some of his imperfect and sinful qualities?

My point is that a God who is truly perfect and good would not see the Fall of man as a good thing. And it certainly would not be a necessary part of His plan. He foreknew it, certainly, and made provisions for their sin, but the Fall was a tragedy. Immeasurable suffering and evil has propagated the earth as a result of Adam and Eve’s disobedience. Mormonism basically teaches that it was God’s plan and that He was a participant in sin. That disturbs me very much.

Further, I don’t see any indication in scripture that it was necessary for Adam and Eve to sin in order to have children.

[quote=petra]Yes, but don’t LDS believe that the God of planet Earth is perfect in all aspects? Or does he supposedly retain some of his imperfect and sinful qualities?

My point is that a God who is truly perfect and good would not see the Fall of man as a good thing. And it certainly would not be a necessary part of His plan. He foreknew it, certainly, and made provisions for their sin, but the Fall was a tragedy. Immeasurable suffering and evil has propagated the earth as a result of Adam and Eve’s disobedience. Mormonism basically teaches that it was God’s plan and that He was a participant in sin. That disturbs me very much.

Further, I don’t see any indication in scripture that it was necessary for Adam and Eve to sin in order to have children.
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Same here. I could go looking up passages to see if the Bible even hints a such a thing, Im sure it doesnt. Sin is a bad thing, Adam and Eve were doing what the Devil told them to do, not what God wanted.

[quote=petra]How could it be God’s will for Adam and Eve to sin?
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that is dangerously close to the calvinist belief of predestination.

the thing i dont get about mormonism is how they can believe that God is not eternal; that he didnt start out as God. if they use the bible it should be so extremely clear that anyone could see that. and where the idea that we can all become gods came from is something i just cant figure out.

[quote=Rand Al’Thor]The thing i dont get about mormonism is how they can believe that God is not eternal; that he didnt start out as God. if they use the bible it should be so extremely clear that anyone could see that. and where the idea that we can all become gods came from is something i just cant figure out.
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They believe the Bible is correct only as far as it is translated correctly. The LDS Church does not identify which parts are not reliable, so they generally take the entire Bible with a grain of salt, relying much more heavily upon their added revelation. (Of course, biblical scriptures are used if they think it supports a Mormon doctrine.)

If there is, in fact, one eternal God who is ominpotent, omniscient, perfectly just, perfectly loving, and all those wonderful attributes, I’m sure it gives His chief opponent great pleasure to pursuade people that God is just a glorified man. God is demoted and man is promoted. Wanting to become like God was the sin of Lucifer, “I will make myself like the Most High” (Is. 14.14)

The Mormon religion, while it looks like an eccentric Protestant denomination on the surface, has a foundation that is profoundly satanic. This foundation is the sin of Lucifer. Please understand this is not an indictment of sincere people, only of the theology of the religion. The Catholic Church teaches that it is possible for people in other religions to have a seed of faith in the true God and be saved, and there are ex-Mormon Catholics in this forum that exemplify that they had that seed even while a Mormon. But generally speaking, it is extremely risky for one’s soul to remain in a religion that is so contrary to the truth of God and His gospel.

Good explanation Tmaque, If not for Adam and Eve’s fall they would still be in the Garden of Eden and the world would not have any people. The fall was pretty necessary to God’s plan I would say. Or maybe, none of us were supposed to be here, and none of this life was supposed to happen. They were just supposed to hang out there for eternity basking in glory. Not a rational thought, to me anyway.

BJ, where did you get the idea that Adam and Eve wouldn’t have had children if the fall didn’t occur? Genesis tells us that one of the consquences of the fall was increased pain in child bearing. That implies that without the fall, there would have been less pain in child bearing, which means there would have been child bearing, right?

Adam and Eve had the option to generate the human race in a perfect state of grace, which they lost when they sinned.

[quote=Rand Al’Thor]that is dangerously close to the calvinist belief of predestination.

the thing i dont get about mormonism is how they can believe that God is not eternal; that he didnt start out as God. if they use the bible it should be so extremely clear that anyone could see that. and where the idea that we can all become gods came from is something i just cant figure out.
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That is one of the myths about Mormons, we do believe God is eternal, he is the God the eternal Father, and as such He has no beginning and no end. He is God, and there is no other God or gods. He is our creator and He is perfect, but we believe that we all keep on progressing and learning throughout eternity and it is possible that a few will progress to the point of being gods, but never equal or at the same level as God. You might compare the word gods in our vernacular as the word Saints in yours. Certain persons become good enough to be elevated to Sainthood in the Catholic church, but never as high or as perfect as God the Father. I think as we do not understand how you elevate mortals to sainthood, you do not understand how mere mortals can be elevated to godhood, but not THE GODHOOD.

We believe that He sent His Son Jesus Christ to atone for the sins of all mankind, including Adam and Eve.

So is my understanding correct, that Catholics believe He atoned for all mankind except Adam and Eve? Or do Catholics not believe in the same atonement LDS believe in?
And now if I understand correctly Catholics believe God did not know Adam would sin, and He did not know that Satan was here to tempt him? So all of that happened without God knowing about it in advance?
I believe God knows all and sees all, and there is nothing that happens without His knowledge.

:slight_smile: BJ

[quote=petra]They believe the Bible is correct only as far as it is translated correctly. The LDS Church does not identify which parts are not reliable, so they generally take the entire Bible with a grain of salt, relying much more heavily upon their added revelation. (Of course, biblical scriptures are used if they think it supports a Mormon doctrine.)

If there is, in fact, one eternal God who is ominpotent, omniscient, perfectly just, perfectly loving, and all those wonderful attributes, I’m sure it gives His chief opponent great pleasure to pursuade people that God is just a glorified man. God is demoted and man is promoted. Wanting to become like God was the sin of Lucifer, “I will make myself like the Most High” (Is. 14.14)

The Mormon religion, while it looks like an eccentric Protestant denomination on the surface, has a foundation that is profoundly satanic. This foundation is the sin of Lucifer. Please understand this is not an indictment of sincere people, only of the theology of the religion. The Catholic Church teaches that it is possible for people in other religions to have a seed of faith in the true God and be saved, and there are ex-Mormon Catholics in this forum that exemplify that they had that seed even while a Mormon. But generally speaking, it is extremely risky for one’s soul to remain in a religion that is so contrary to the truth of God and His gospel.
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:frowning: Oh dear Petra, how would you feel if someone said that about your religion, not nice at all. I love you, but it is difficult to hear you call me satanic and not feel a bit queasy. How do you put yourself as judge of who is satanic?
We do study the Bible(KJV) in it’s entirety, being aware that there could be some misinterpretations, as Catholics have pointed out in these posts. We spend much of our childhood memorizing scriptures from the bible and a few from the Book of Mormon. Most of the ones I memorized are from the Bible. As children from age 3 up, and as adults we study the Bible every Sunday in a class held after our Sacramento meeting. We study it in our women’s group Relief Society, and we study it daily at home. My husband(who is Catholic)and I study both the Catholic Bible and the KJV Bible together comparing scripture from both. I guess from what you are saying then I could say Catholics don’t read the Bible, but only read things written by their leaders like the Catechism, and I don’t know enough about your writings to enumerate, but I am sure you have other books to read besides your Bible.
Because we have the Book of Mormon does not mean we study or believe less in the Bible. We consider them equal as testaments of Jesus Christ. They go hand in hand totally equal as scripture to us.
I hope I may have clarified our beliefs a tiny bit in your mind.
At least to the point where you won’t consider Mormons to be Satanic, simply because you don’t believe the same as we do. That is a very poor description of a group of very faithful followers of Jesus Christ. Charity Never Faileth :slight_smile: BJ

[quote=BJ Colbert]That is one of the myths about Mormons, we do believe God is eternal, he is the God the eternal Father, and as such He has no beginning and no end. He is God, and there is no other God or gods. He is our creator and He is perfect, but we believe that we all keep on progressing and learning throughout eternity and it is possible that a few will progress to the point of being gods, but never equal or at the same level as God. You might compare the word gods in our vernacular as the word Saints in yours. Certain persons become good enough to be elevated to Sainthood in the Catholic church, but never as high or as perfect as God the Father. I think as we do not understand how you elevate mortals to sainthood, you do not understand how mere mortals can be elevated to godhood, but not THE GODHOOD.

We believe that He sent His Son Jesus Christ to atone for the sins of all mankind, including Adam and Eve.

So is my understanding correct, that Catholics believe He atoned for all mankind except Adam and Eve? Or do Catholics not believe in the same atonement LDS believe in?
And now if I understand correctly Catholics believe God did not know Adam would sin, and He did not know that Satan was here to tempt him? So all of that happened without God knowing about it in advance?
I believe God knows all and sees all, and there is nothing that happens without His knowledge.

:slight_smile: BJ
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so you dont believe that God didnt start out as God and elevated to where He is now? that’s what i had read before.
and isnt the third level of Heaven that you believe in where someone becomes like a god of their own universe?

[quote=BJ Colbert]That is one of the myths about Mormons, we do believe God is eternal, he is the God the eternal Father, and as such He has no beginning and no end. He is God, and there is no other God or gods. He is our creator and He is perfect, but we believe that we all keep on progressing and learning throughout eternity and it is possible that a few will progress to the point of being gods, but never equal or at the same level as God. You might compare the word gods in our vernacular as the word Saints in yours. Certain persons become good enough to be elevated to Sainthood in the Catholic church, but never as high or as perfect as God the Father. I think as we do not understand how you elevate mortals to sainthood, you do not understand how mere mortals can be elevated to godhood, but not THE GODHOOD.

We believe that He sent His Son Jesus Christ to atone for the sins of all mankind, including Adam and Eve.

So is my understanding correct, that Catholics believe He atoned for all mankind except Adam and Eve? Or do Catholics not believe in the same atonement LDS believe in?
And now if I understand correctly Catholics believe God did not know Adam would sin, and He did not know that Satan was here to tempt him? So all of that happened without God knowing about it in advance?
I believe God knows all and sees all, and there is nothing that happens without His knowledge.

:slight_smile: BJ
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BJ,

Lorenzo Snow (The 5th President of the LDS Church) taught, and I quote “As man is God once was, as God is man may become”. So, if claiming that LDS believe that God was once just a plain old mortal man is a myth, then it’s a only a recent myth because it certainly was taught previously.
Note this quote:
“It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did.’ The Father is a glorified, perfected, resurrected, exalted man who worked out his salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same.” (LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p.64) I believe this book was published in 1968…not that long ago.

Elder McConkie in his book is clearly making an affirmation of Lorenzo Snow’s famous statement.

Joseph Smith said in a speech “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret.”

As you can see this belief was clearly held and taught in unequivocal terms from Joseph Smith right up until Gordon B. Hinkley’s subtle retreat from the doctrine in recent major media interviews. In fact, despite GB Hinkley’s recent statements, most LDS I know, still hold the belief as it has always been taught. I’m curious, is this new understanding being taught from your church heirarchy now? If I were still LDS I would find Hiinkley’s statements incredibly disturbing. Is he a prophet or not?

THE PROPHETS SPEAK:

JOSEPH SMITH, JR.:
“It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know… that he was once a man like us…”

GORDON B. HINCKLEY:
[Q. Was God once a man?] “I don’t know. … I wouldn’t say that… I don’t know that we teach it… We don’t know very much about [that]… I don’t know a lot about it”

See what I mean? Hmmmmm…I wonder what else the Prophet Joseph Smith was wrong about?

I know for a fact that the Prophet Joseph Smith spoke as a man a good portion of the time and he made no secret of it. He spoke as a Prophet on many occasions, but not all occasions. As a man he spoke as you or I would speak which is personal opinion. Other Prophets did the same. The things he spoke as a Prophet are in the Doctrine and Covenants. Section 130 v 22 is Joseph’s description of the Godhead, as received from inspiration from God. That is all we know for sure, the other is spoken as a man and may be true or not. But, it does no good to argue about something you do not believe. And that I do not know for sure until I meet God face to face and ask Him. All I know is what I said above, I think you use the word saint for exalted human beings, we use the word gods for the few persons who might attain the status of godhood, but never as God the Father is. We aspire to that as long as we live, by following the commandments and doing the things on earth to gain exaltation in heaven, but as far as knowing which or how many, no one can say for certain. Some men believe certain things, because they are men and some men misinterpret certain things and expound on them because they hope. How do you know the saints you pray to are in heaven? Did God tell you, is it in your Bible? Or was it added in later by men? How did you know which ones should be elevated to sainthood? What is that about? How do you know until you get to heaven where they went and if they were really saints?
I also noticed Pope John Paul II had all of his writings destroyed after his death. Was that in case he had said anything that could be misinterpreted by the faithful later, as with that other pope that is now known as a heretic because of his human writings. They are human, you know, and they still have their own personal thoughts, as well as guidance at times by God in regards to the salvation of mankind.
I am still wondering about the question I asked about the atonement. It is my understanding now that Catholics do not believe in the atonement of Jesus Christ, or that they believe He died to save all mankind except Adam and Eve? Which is it? or is it neither, I am very confused by the statements above that God did not know Adam would sin. I believe God knows everything and is prepared in advance for the results of that sin. He knows His children, better than you know your children. :confused:

Then God did not know He was going to send His Son Jesus Christ to atone for the sins of all mankind(except Adam) So none of that was planned in advance, it just got so bad He decided on the spur of the moment(but told everybody for a thousand years in advance)that He was going to send Jesus. He also does not know about the second coming until it happens, so maybe someone should tell God that we are expecting Him. Seems very strange, and I was just beginning to understand your religion well enough to talk to my husband intelligently. By the way my husband was surprised to hear God didn’t have a plan and that Adam was not supposed to sin and that he (Adam) is not covered by the Atonement, and that maybe Catholics do not believe in the Atonement. He always understood they did and that the Atonement covered everyone.(no exceptions) Where does it say in the scriptures that Adam is excluded?
Come on now think about it, does that make any sense whatsoever?
Love you all, but you have my head spinning with that one, I am waiting for the answer, but probably won’t get one. :thumbsup: BJ

so how do mormons interpret the passage in revelations where Jesus says there will be none after Him until He comes again?

All I know is what I said above, I think you use the word saint for exalted human beings, we use the word gods for the few persons who might attain the status of godhood, but never as God the Father is.

According to Joseph Smith, the Father was once a man and is now nothing more than an exalted man. What keeps us from attaining the status of goodhood like God the Father? Is this a belief accepted by Mormons, or is this just an admission on your part that the classical Mormon system just isnt true?

[quote=BJ Colbert]:frowning: Oh dear Petra, how would you feel if someone said that about your religion, not nice at all. I love you, but it is difficult to hear you call me satanic and not feel a bit queasy. How do you put yourself as judge of who is satanic? . . . I hope I may have clarified our beliefs a tiny bit in your mind.
At least to the point where you won’t consider Mormons to be Satanic, simply because you don’t believe the same as we do. That is a very poor description of a group of very faithful followers of Jesus Christ. Charity Never Faileth :slight_smile: BJ
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No, no, BJ! I am not saying you are satanic or any other person for that matter. Please understand I am talking objectively about the teaching of the Mormon Church. There may be spiritual consequences for these teachings, but it is not my place or desire to judge individuals.

The theology is dangerous because at its core, the Mormon gospel is the sin of Lucifer – wanting to become a god. The core of any religion is the definition and plan of salvation. The primary objective in Mormon salvation is eternal progression to the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom—to become God and Heavenly Father (or Mother) to a planet of people. The objective is to become what the God of our Earth is. Make no mistake! This is the sin of Lucifer! And it is for this reason that Mormonism is fundamentally satanic.

Yes, the Mormon Church appears very Christian in its terminology morality, and activities. And there are so many, many sincere and good people in the Mormon Church. I have known many, and I have no doubt that you are just as nice. But I would encourage you to consider the foundation of Mormonism and think about the implications of seeking eternal progression. I cannot judge and do not wish to. I’m just stating the facts about the Biblical account of Satan’s fall and the primary objective of Mormonism.

I do not raise this issue because Mormonism is a view different than my own. I am very open minded and love Truth more than my own opinion. This love of Truth forced me to reconsider 22 years of what I thought was a water-tight theology. Up until 3 years ago, I was a Calvinist Protestant, and I am now a Catholic. It was a painful transition and I am still struggling with a couple of issues, but history, an unbiased reading of scripture, and the conclusion that the apostolic deposit of faith continues through the Catholic Church has led me home. So I don’t expect more open mindedness of others than I require of myself.

How would I feel if someone said this about Catholicism? I expect others (especially those who love me) to be perfectly honest with me. If a friend of mine honestly thinks that the Catholic Church is satanic, I would want her to discuss it with me. No, I would not be offended. It would be an opportunity for us both to come closer to the Truth. Truth is not owned. It is discovered. If we all seek Truth with little regard for our own opinion, we will find it indeed.

I love you, too, BJ! Please consider what Mormonism is based on. Please look at the real reason Satan fell. The Mormon church says that Lucifer and Jesus were spirit brothers. Jesus was selected by Heavenly Father to be the savior of the world. Lucifer got upset and rebelled against God because he wanted to be savior. That is the Mormon account of his fall and transformation into Satan. It was a sibling rivalry.

But the Book of Isaiah has a much different account. Lucifer, referred to as the “star of the morning” and previously the greatest angel, was jealous of the Most High. He wanted to raise himself above God Eternal and become like God. This does not mean that he merely wanted to have attributes of holiness like God. He wanted to be a God. He also wanted to be worshipped. When he tempted Jesus in the wilderness, he demanded that Jesus bow down to worship him. Of course, Jesus didn’t. But ever since his fall, he has wanted the worship that is due God. And I believe it gives Satan great pleasure to pursuade people to view God as a created being that progressed into His current god-state. He wants to demote God because that elevates himself. And I also believe it gives Satan great pleasure to pursuade people to think they, too, can progress to that god-state. The worst sinners make great efforts to get others to commit the same sins.

I’m tellin’ ya. This is scary. Very scary.

[quote=BJ Colbert] I am still wondering about the question I asked about the atonement. It is my understanding now that Catholics do not believe in the atonement of Jesus Christ, or that they believe He died to save all mankind except Adam and Eve? Which is it? or is it neither, I am very confused by the statements above that God did not know Adam would sin. I believe God knows everything and is prepared in advance for the results of that sin. He knows His children, better than you know your children. :confused:

Then God did not know He was going to send His Son Jesus Christ to atone for the sins of all mankind(except Adam) So none of that was planned in advance, it just got so bad He decided on the spur of the moment(but told everybody for a thousand years in advance)that He was going to send Jesus. He also does not know about the second coming until it happens, so maybe someone should tell God that we are expecting Him. Seems very strange, and I was just beginning to understand your religion well enough to talk to my husband intelligently. By the way my husband was surprised to hear God didn’t have a plan and that Adam was not supposed to sin and that he (Adam) is not covered by the Atonement, and that maybe Catholics do not believe in the Atonement. He always understood they did and that the Atonement covered everyone.(no exceptions) Where does it say in the scriptures that Adam is excluded?
Come on now think about it, does that make any sense whatsoever?
Love you all, but you have my head spinning with that one, I am waiting for the answer, but probably won’t get one. :thumbsup: BJ
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Christ atoned for ALL the sins of the world – Adam and Eve’s sin and all of our personal sins. That atonement is applied to a person when they receive the sacrament of Baptism. The application of that atonement remains unless a person does something to reject the grace of God. If that happens God’s love and kindness allows for us to be reconciled throught the sacrament of Reconciliation (confession). That person is then again in a state of grace and Christ’s perfect and complete atonement applies. Christ’s atonement and grace remains constant and is available to anyone. The variable is the free will of the individual. Does this help clarify?

Regarding God’s foreknowledge of Adam’s sin…God is outside of time. Simultaneously, He sees the creation of the universe and the Second Coming of Christ and everything in between. So of course He knew what Adam was going to do and had planned for that in an eternity prior to that. God’s plan of salvation was not spur of the moment. Again, He is outside of time. He sees the beginning and the end simultaneously.

Jesus, during His incarnation on earth, relenquished some of His attributes of omniscience. He knew when He would be returning for the Second Coming before the incarnation and He again knew after His ascension. But during His life on earth, He did not have knowledge of it. God, as the triune Godhead, always knew when the Second Coming would be.

[quote=petra]How could it be God’s will for Adam and Eve to sin? It is completely against God’s nature to advocate sin. He would be divided against Himself and He would negate eternal attributes of His nature.

Petra, This post from you caused me to believe that Catholics do not think that God knew that Adam would sin. In other words it was a surprise to God and ruined our world as it could have been, forever in the Garden of Eden without sin, pain, or suffering.

Yes, we do believe that Lucifer was cast out of heaven with 1/3rd of the hosts of heaven who followed him, to spread destruction and suffering over the world. We believe he is real and always trying to lead us astray. That is why we spend so much time and energy protecting ourselves with the armor of God. By obeying all of the commandments, and studying the Bible and other scriptures, and living good lives of service to others :slight_smile: BJ
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