Mormons- how could you? "Killing her twice" Your church does not offer an appropriate response


#1

usatoday.com/news/religion/story/2012-02-23/anne-frank-mormon-baptism/53226808/1

Note that no where in this article can we find the Mormon church telling us that there are steps being taken right now to undue this. Perhaps it is like many believer's rituals in that it is indelible.

There must be a way to declare this baptism invalid.

What despicable behavior from the Mormons.

Killing her twice.

I stand with those who condemn this action and ask you do something to undue it.


#2

As Catholics, we don't recognize Mormon baptism as valid - it is my guess that the Jewish faith also shares a similar opinion. I do agree with you that this was not an appropriate or respectful thing to do!

catholic.com/quickquestions/why-doesnt-the-catholic-church-accept-mormon-baptism
catholic.com/quickquestions/if-i-was-baptized-catholic-but-later-converted-to-mormonism-is-my-baptism-still-valid


#3

Rome has already declared this and all other proxy LDS baptisms as invalid. The LDS do not rescind their ordinances; they only cover them up by removing the records of them from public view. This is not the first time Anne Franck’s proxy ordinance work has been “done” and it won’t be the last. Many other famous individuals, such as Adolf Hitler, Saint Bernadette, President George Washington, John Lennon, the Blessed Virgin and Pope John Paul II have received the same (often redundant) treatment. It is not despicable behavior to the LDS; instead, it is a necessary tenet of misguided faith.

Pray for the LDS people, that they may come to a true understanding of Christ and His redemption.


#4

[quote="venite_adoremus, post:3, topic:275073"]
Rome has already declared this and all other proxy LDS baptisms as invalid. The LDS do not rescind their ordinances; they only cover them up by removing the records of them from public view. This is not the first time Anne Franck's proxy ordinance work has been "done" and it won't be the last. Many other famous individuals, such as Adolf Hitler, Saint Bernadette, President George Washington, John Lennon, the Blessed Virgin and Pope John Paul II have received the same (often redundant) treatment. It is not despicable behavior to the LDS; instead, it is a necessary tenet of misguided faith.

Pray for the LDS people, that they may come to a true understanding of Christ and His redemption.

[/quote]

John Lennon too? Well I'll be Jammed.

Who are they kidding anyway?

**None **of those people wanted to be Mormon! In the case of Anne Frank, she died for the singular reason that she was Jewish.

Who can I write to in order to appeal this?


#5

It's not like you can write to someone in the LDS church to have them undo this. The temple work they do is a tenant of their faith; they firmly believe they are saving souls.


#6

I want to know who I can write to quit getting the living so worked up about something as unimportant as this...:shrug:


#7

So sad… :confused:


#8

Perhaps the Catholic could lead by example and come up with some sort of ritual capable of reversing their own baptisms? I know I was baptized as a infant and from what I understand it somehow put some sort of unremovable stain on my soul. Very untidy and quite offensive.


#9

[quote="cerad2, post:8, topic:275073"]
Perhaps the Catholic could lead by example and come up with some sort of ritual capable of reversing their own baptisms? I know I was baptized as a infant and from what I understand it somehow put some sort of unremovable stain on my soul. Very untidy and quite offensive.

[/quote]

Baptism can never be reversed. I understand the point you are making but it fails as a child baptised as a Christian may as they grow older chose to continue as a Christian or not. In the examples cited that is not the case.

There is one baptism only, thus explaining why when Christians from other Churches enter into fellowship with the Catholic Church they are not re-baptised provided their baptism was valid in intent and form. No man has the power to reverse baptism, nor can it ever be undone.


#10

You’re being dramatic.
It’s not that big of a deal. So what if she was given proxy baptism? It’s not “despicable.”

This whole forum is degenerating into an anti-Mormon crusade. Sadly. And most of the Mormons on here are being driven out.


#11

[quote="cerad2, post:8, topic:275073"]
Perhaps the Catholic could lead by example and come up with some sort of ritual capable of reversing their own baptisms? I know I was baptized as a infant and from what I understand it somehow put some sort of unremovable stain on my soul. Very untidy and quite offensive.

[/quote]

:shrug: A parent makes decisions for their child, that is how it is. They decide to clothe you, feed you, raise you in their faith. As an adult, you are freed from everything that is of your parents.


#12

[quote="enbell, post:5, topic:275073"]
It's not like you can write to someone in the LDS church to have them undo this. The temple work they do is a tenant of their faith; they firmly believe they are saving souls.

[/quote]

Perhaps they should consider evicting that tenant ;)


#13

[quote="RebeccaJ, post:11, topic:275073"]
:shrug: A parent makes decisions for their child, that is how it is. They decide to clothe you, feed you, raise you in their faith. As an adult, you are freed from everything that is of your parents.

[/quote]

What if I were a Mormon who clothed, fed, and took care of my grandmother in her old age, and when she died, me, in my loving nature as her grandchild, decided to have a proxy baptism perform?

My parents, who are ex-Catholics, reject infant baptism and consider the practice having been done on them as being both invalid and illegitimate.

You can try to run circles around it, but the fact is, in infant baptism, the child does not get a choice. That's why we have hysterical atheists going around performing debaptisms.

To find Catholics objecting to Mormon posthumous baptism is quite frankly, strange. If you reject proxy baptism because the dead have no voice in the matter, then the same must apply to infant baptism.


#14

You can try to run circles around it, but the fact is, in infant baptism, the child does not get a choice. That’s why we have hysterical atheists going around performing debaptisms.

Thus oddly confirming the very thing they do not believe in.

There is some truth to your points and I for one regard the Mormons rituals in this area as irrelevant and something not worth getting to worked up about. However the Mormons have made themselves a lot of enemies in many nations by using records of deaths, genealogy etc. to carry on proxy baptisms. They ran into legal troubles in Ireland a few years back over this as it emerged they were carrying out proxy baptisms on those who died in the Irish ‘Famine’. In my wife’s home nation of Russian and also in her granfather’s home nation of the Ukraine they have similarly made themselves most unpopular as they started perfomring proxy baptism on veterans who died in the WW2 era etc. The ritual is a tenet of their faith but they often singularly fail to investiage (or it would seem acknowledge it as a concern) how their work in this area is likely to be viewed by locals. They actually got themselves deported from the city my wife comes from originally in Russia and they offended a great number of the local Christian (and other) community leaders along the way.


#15

[quote="FabiusMaximus, post:13, topic:275073"]
What if I were a Mormon who clothed, fed, and took care of my grandmother in her old age, and when she died, me, in my loving nature as her grandchild, decided to have a proxy baptism perform?

My parents, who are ex-Catholics, reject infant baptism and consider the practice having been done on them as being both invalid and illegitimate.

You can try to run circles around it, but the fact is, in infant baptism, the child does not get a choice. That's why we have hysterical atheists going around performing debaptisms.

To find Catholics objecting to Mormon posthumous baptism is quite frankly, strange. If you reject proxy baptism because the dead have no voice in the matter, then the same must apply to infant baptism.

[/quote]

Honestly, I'm at a loss as to why people would care in the first place. If, as the Catholic Church teaches, mormon baptisms have no power, then why do some of the Catholic posters here waste their energy getting upset over such a trivial matter? Life is too short.


#16

I have yet to figure out what person in their right mind is going to tell parents how they can raise their own children. I was raised LDS, and received an LDS baptism, because it was the wishes of my parents. I view it as it was, an act out of what my parents believed. Obviously, as an adult I don’t share their beliefs.

I don’t know of anyone who believes the living are the parents of the dead, with some sort of parental rights over them, with the associated decision making on behalf of ancestors, let alone, someone else’s dead.

That being said, I don’t view the Mormon ritual as effective at all, just a waste of time. I see all this media over their necro-baptisms as political because of Romney. If a Mormon wasn’t running for president, few people would care.


#17

[quote="JharekCarnelian, post:9, topic:275073"]
Baptism can never be reversed. I understand the point you are making but it fails as a child baptised as a Christian may as they grow older chose to continue as a Christian or not. In the examples cited that is not the case.

[/quote]

So I can't do anything about this stain. Very sad. At least my parents didn't cut off some of my body parts. Oh wait...

There is one baptism only, thus explaining why when Christians from other Churches enter into fellowship with the Catholic Church they are not re-baptised provided their baptism was valid in intent and form. No man has the power to reverse baptism, nor can it ever be undone.

If there is only one baptism then why are folks getting upset over what the Mormons are doing?

I mean, nobody seems to make a big deal out of the fact that just about everyone in the western world is Jewish.


#18

[quote="JharekCarnelian, post:14, topic:275073"]
Thus oddly confirming the very thing they do not believe in.

There is some truth to your points and I for one regard the Mormons rituals in this area as irrelevant and something not worth getting to worked up about. However the Mormons have made themselves a lot of enemies in many nations by using records of deaths, genealogy etc. to carry on proxy baptisms. They ran into legal troubles in Ireland a few years back over this as it emerged they were carrying out proxy baptisms on those who died in the Irish 'Famine'. In my wife's home nation of Russian and also in her granfather's home nation of the Ukraine they have similarly made themselves most unpopular as they started perfomring proxy baptism on veterans who died in the WW2 era etc. The ritual is a tenet of their faith but they often singularly fail to investiage (or it would seem acknowledge it as a concern) how their work in this area is likely to be viewed by locals. They actually got themselves deported from the city my wife comes from originally in Russia and they offended a great number of the local Christian (and other) community leaders along the way.

[/quote]

The fact that it is unpopular doesn't mean it should get such hostilities.

I used to have a really good Mormon friend from Chile. He returned to Santiago many years ago. If he told me he would pray for me or have me baptized upon my death, I would simply respond: "I'll be praying for you too."

The point is, these Mormons performing this ceremony, whether you want to call them misguided or reckless or whatever, are not doing any harm to anybody and indeed are doing what they do out of their good will toward humanity at large.

We as Christians believe we have a sacred commission by Jesus to spread the Gospel and have people baptized.

To start having constant threads defaming and attacking Mormons for the practice of proxy baptism, done in good will, and accusing them of "killing holocaust victims twice" (a ludicrous charge, and arguably a diminishing of what the victim went through) is uncharitable, at best.


#19

[quote="cerad2, post:17, topic:275073"]
So I can't do anything about this stain. Very sad. At least my parents didn't cut off some of my body parts. Oh wait...

Exactly why are you draging circumcision into the thread? Apart from that you are at this point wilfully misrepresenting Catholic teaching on Baptism, I suspect you are aware of that.

If there is only one baptism then why are folks getting upset over what the Mormons are doing?

Like my Orthodox colleague Caravadossi I actually am not all that bothered. From a Catholic or Orthodox viewpoint LDS baptism are invalid and not sacramental in any case. However the reason many people do become upset is the LDS have a habit of showing shall we say a lack of discretion in the individuals they 'baptise.'

I mean, nobody seems to make a big deal out of the fact that just about everyone in the western world is Jewish.

This should come as fascinating news to those who study demographics for a living. If you are trying to once again drag circumcision into the thread the fact it is common among males from many religious backgrounds in the US is not reflected in the 'western world' as a whole and I can think of only boy I went to school with who was circumcised out of a year group of several hundred.

[/quote]


#20

[quote="RebeccaJ, post:16, topic:275073"]
I have yet to figure out what person in their right mind is going to tell parents how they can raise their own children. I was raised LDS, and received an LDS baptism, because it was the wishes of my parents. I view it as it was, an act out of what my parents believed. Obviously, as an adult I don't share their beliefs.

I don't know of anyone who believes the living are the parents of the dead, with some sort of parental rights over them, with the associated decision making on behalf of ancestors, let alone, someone else's dead.

That being said, I don't view the Mormon ritual as effective at all, just a waste of time. I see all this media over their necro-baptisms as political because of Romney. If a Mormon wasn't running for president, few people would care.

[/quote]

Rebecca,
The point isn't to do with telling the parents what to do, it is about the parents making a decision for the child. Even an Evangelical Christian will make this argument toward a Roman Catholic. It is good to bring up your child in the faith, but then they'll argue: shouldn't it be their decision in the end to join or reject the Catholic Church? By having them baptized, and arguably, by forcing them to have their First Communion and later Confirmation, you are making their decisions for them. You are making them Catholics without their permission, and not just being a guide toward the truth.

When you are baptized, you are on the rolls as a Catholic. There is no difference.


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