If the Mormons claim that the early church fell into an apostasy, how do you explain the Catholic Church having claim over the bodies of the original apostles today? That to me would be another proven example about how the Church has always maintained herself. Although, of course, there was apostates from the church, there was never a COMPLETE apostasy, Actually, no where close at all to a complete apostasy. Do Mormon apostles go to Rome and visit the tombs of the original apostles? Do Mormon Apostles make pilgrimages to Bethlehem to The Church of the Nativity where the Jesus was born, or the manger where Mary laid him? And if they do, do the people of Bethlehem recognize that they are apostles and treat them the same way they would, say, the Pope?
I forgot to ask one more thing. I realize that Mormons want the fullness of truth when it comes to the inspired word of GOD, so why choose the King James version of the bible, when Luther clearly took books out of it? The bible is a Catholic book anyways since we are the ones who put it together, so why be picky and choosy. Luther obviously trusted the books we chose to put together to make up the New Testament, so why do Mormons not trust us the rest of the way and include the 7 books he took out and incorporate them into Mormon teachings of the inspired word?
I suppose that I might as well answer this question, since I haven’t been able to fall completely asleep tonight for some reason and I at least have some idea of an answer to this question.
I think the King James Translation of the Bible is as much a miracle as anything God has ever had a hand in. I think William Tyndale was greatly inspired in his translation process and use of English. The group of scholars who developed the King James translation used much of what he had done. I think God guided their work to a large extent.
If I remember correctly, in the past I have read parts of the “7 books” you asked about, and I don’t find the same message in those particular books as in the books in the King James Bible. They don’t “ring true” to me in their entirety. I read from them out of curiosity, but I could understand why they would not be considered inspired prophetic writings.
All the best to you and yours. I’ll let someone else answer your other questions.
They don’t “ring true” to me in their entirety. I read from them out of curiosity, but I could understand why they would not be considered inspired prophetic writings
Hey ParkerD! But our feelings are misleading, that’s why Jesus left authority on earth, so that we would not be making our own decisions on what is right in the eyes of God. We do not have the authority to bind and loose on earth. So of course they are not going to “ring true” to you because as a human being, our “feelings” can deceive us. If I went on my feeling about something, I would be married to my first kiss…and I know now that would never happen, but because I felt so 'in love" at that moment, I really thought I could not live without him…LOL of course that all changed within a month…all I’m saying is, to not go on a “feeling”. think about how many times you thought something was right and it turned out not to be at all what you expected.
**Jeremiah 17:9 **
More tortuous than all else is the human heart, beyond remedy; who can understand it?
2 Peter 1:20-21
Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation,
for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God
I understand that people think feelings can be misleading. I agree that they can. I also think that a person can become very familiar with the same “Holy Spirit” that Peter wrote about in 2 Peter 1:21. I don’t think they need to think it is mysterious and can’t be trusted. Paul taught differently, as did Peter.
When I wrote that those books didn’t “ring true,” I was politely saying that the Holy Spirit does not ratify for me that the words in them are 100% inspired and true. I have had enough experience with that ratifying “prompting” of the Holy Spirit to understand when I am receiving the kind of ratifying communication I am talking about. I get it from reading the Bible, often. But not from reading those writings.
I hope that has clarified for you.
You do realize those “7 books” plus a couple more were in the original King James bible and remained there for quite a while. The church that brought us the King James bible (Church of England) even mentions them in their 39 articles of faith.
No, the Mormons are saving up for a trip to Zarahemla, in case Zarahemla ever gets found.
DO you have such a claim? That’s an interesting position to take, Alisha. Where are they? Who do you have?
Egypt has claim over the body of Tutankhamen. Does that mean that A: the god Ra is real, and is overseeing the world today?Does that mean that those who worship him have the real, true, church?
…and if you don’t have all of them, does that mean that the Catholic church is untrue to the extent that you are missing some?
Alisha, you really need to rethink this one.
Hello Alisha, hope all is well with you.
Mormons can’t really answer what you are asking, about the dead, as there is no framework, whatsoever, in mormonism that comprehends what you are asking.
I’m sorry, from a Catholic point of view, I have to strongly disagree with this point. Tyndale was a heretic, and from the research I did at your request, I got the strong impression he was not an honorable person. His translation had over 2,000 errors in it and he added heretical prefaces to at least three of the books in the New Testament. I read part of his preface to Romans. What I read was one of the most vile, hate filled rants I’ve ever had the displeasure to read. I got a third of the way through and had to stop it made me so angry. There was a reason the Church condemned his translation. He was definitely not a hero or someone worthy of praise. This is my opinion as a Catholic based on my research of the man.
I can see that! LOL
Dianne I do not need to rethink it at all. I am curious about it. And yes, we do have most, if not all of their tombs. I didn’t mention anything about the god Ra! That has absolutely nothing to do with my questions! If you can’t answer something, it’s ok, but don’t make someone else feel bad about asking. I think you mentioned before that you are a teacher, or was a teacher, so you should know first hand that this is how people find information out.
Alisha, it does have 'something to do with it," because you are claiming (I think, anyway,) that because you have possession of the bodies of the apostles, or at least the tombs, that this somehow proves that Catholicism is the one true church: that there is something about knowing where they are buried, or owning the sites, that confirms authority on you.
I don’t get it.
This is why I mentioned King Tut, because by the very same reasoning, the fact that the Egyptions have him means that the god he worshiped–and was actually supposed to BE, is real and his worship is 'true."
Sure looks like the same claim to me.
I would say it certainly shows a continuity, at the very least. Just one more mark in the historicity column.
I suppose I might as well answer these questions since I have popped awake way early this morning and I don’t know that you’ve had your questions here answered.
I personally don’t think having the “claim” over the tombs and the bodies of the original apostles means anything about having authority or having a fulness of truth. It seems like that idea would be more an idea of trying to assert and prove that an organization has legitimate authority by such a claim, than actually proving it by Biblical means (which would be that the church “looks the same” and “acts the same” and "brings the same thing to the world now that it brought to the world then.) I think one would have to study the New Testament itself, the more original the better, to be able to figure that out, not by trying to figure out who owns relics or tombs or the remains of leaders.
I doubt that Mormon apostles would care about visiting the tombs, even if they had complete evidence that the tombs held within them the remains of any of the original twelve. They realize that the original apostles themselves (except John and Judas Iscariot) are in the spirit world helping preach the gospel like they did on earth and helping lead the people as the people progress in following Christ like the apostles did on earth. The apostles’ work didn’t end with their deaths. It continued. Their spirits aren’t “staying close by” their remains, but instead have plenty to do elsewhere.
I have heard Mormon apostles talk about being in the garden of Gethsemane and having reverence for that location.
I think all Mormons have reverence for creche displays. There are many creche displays placed on the Temple Square grounds in Salt Lake City during the entire Christmas season, along with Christmas light displays that celebrate the “light of the world” brought into the world by the Savior’s birth.
When Mormon apostles do visit the Holy Land, they are usually quiet about it unless there is a public occasion or ceremony such as when the school that has been built by the Mormon church near the place where Solomon’s temple stood, was dedicated or re-dedicated after being remodeled. If they appear in public, they certainly abide by their agreement with the Jewish leaders that allowed them to build the school, in that they and the students would not attempt to share the gospel publicly while being there.
Some of the Jewish leaders have actually shown a great deal of respect for the Mormon apostles over the years, and some have visited Salt Lake City over the years and have met apostles and been shown around to places like the Humanitarian Center and the Welfare Center where goods and foods are prepared and stored that are used to aid people throughout the world when needs arise in significant circumstances such as natural disasters or famines.
that because you have possession of the bodies of the apostles, or at least the tombs, that this somehow proves that Catholicism is the one true church:
The thing about it Diana, is we are the true church, and it will always be that way, and there isn’t anything you can do to change that. Wether you believe it is or is not, it will always be the one true church! It does not take your belief to validate it. It is what it is, and will always be true! I already know this, therefore I do not need proof. I know it is true because I listened to what Jesus taught and what he said and what he warned against. The church Jesus created for us is beautiful and flawless, just as He is. He is the head and we are the body, we do what the head tells us. He told us to do certain things, and we do them. No other church can make that claim.
I think that many people would disagree with this claim that the catholic church is flawless. You do know of the problems that the catholic church has had in the present and in the past with its priests and nuns, right? You would have to make a distinction between the church and its people. If not, the catholic church is not flawless. No church is flawless if people are included into the equation.
Why me, The Holy Spirit leads the church into flawless truth! It does not mean that people in the church are going to be perfect. For example: Jesus knew all the apostles were going to deny him, but yet he still kept them as his apostles. We are humans and we are not perfect, and there are a lot of temptations that we are going to fall victim to. You also need to remember that the devil attacks the things that God loves, God loves His church and God loves his clergy, so if a priest was to let his guard down and have any kinds of sinful thoughts, the devil is going to work really hard at trying to get that preist to act on them so that God’s faithful will start to doubt and lose faith and second guess the Church. And as sad as it is and as you can see, it works. People immediantly start doubting and leaving the faith. God does test our faiths at times.
The church has never said that the people or priest or clergy or popes or the apostles that walked in the same steps as Christ are flawless and perfect and are without sin. But he did promise that his church would not be prevailed by the gates of hell. He also said “Remember I am with you always” I will not leave you as orphans" He says a lot of this, but people still deny His church, just as they denied him when he was performing miracles right in front of them, they still walked away from Him. Nothing has changed, people still do not trust His word, and it is very sad.
They do visit Nauvoo, but more because there are displays there showing how the city was built and organized and homes furnished during the time of Joseph Smith, plus there is also an outdoor musical theatre production that does explain the life of Joseph Smith and something of his story through a musical production that people come to watch.
I’m OK with your beliefs, for your needs and desires being fully satisfied.
There is no scriptural evidence in the New Testament that the bishops were assigned by the apostles to succeed the apostles.