Mormons, where did St. paul say that.....


#1

My LDS friends, where did St. Paul say that there was going to have to be a reconstruction of the church?

thanks in advance

#2

St Paul never said that, perhaps a reason for the poscity of responses.

Mormons have a theory called the apostacy/restoration theory. It says the original chruch “apotacised” out of existence until Joeseph Smith “restored” it back into being.


#3

There are a number of scriptures in the Bible alluding to the apostasy such as Acts 20:29-30, 2 Tim 4:3, 2 Thes 2:1-3. There is also Peter speaking of the restitution Acts 3:19-21. However, these mearly lend support and are interesting since we have the word of the Lord to Joseph Smith. Joseph, was confused and did not no which church to join. Indeed he states that at the time he was partial to the Methodist sect. However following the council of James (James 1:5) he prayed to God to find out which church to join. He says, “I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun which descended gradually until it fell upon me. …When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other - This is my Beloved Son. Hear Him!” (Joseph Smith History 1:16-17) He then asks these two beings which of the sects was right for it had not occurred to him at that time that they were all wrong. “I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong” (Joseph Smith History 1:19). Thus the word of the Lord is ultimately the evidence for the apostasy and needed restoration and a more sure word cannot be found.


#4

Latter-day Saints believe in a restoration of all things shortly before Christ returns." Paul said: “That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.” (Eph. 1:10) When the members were being persecuted thay hoped there would be an immeadiate return of Christ, but Paul told them that it would not happen soon because he knew that the day of Christ would not come, “except there come a falling away first.” (2 Thess 2:3)

Peter told the Jews that the heavens would recieve Christ until “the times of restitution of all things.” Peter then said these things had been spoken of by “all his holy prophets since the world began.” Many of the scriptures telling of the restoration are found in the Old Testament.

“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.” (Acts 3:19-21)

Thanks for the question. I hope this helps you understand what the LDS believe.


#5

The problem is, none of the verses ever say there will be a total apostasy. The Mormons twist and add to verses to obtain that. Jesus was clear that hell would NEVER prevail. Hell never did. Jesus did not lie. There was no need for the LDS Church


#6

Why do you believe Joeseph Smith? And why do you follow him? (As it were). And I mean that not as a challenge, but out of sincere curiosity.

-Chris


#7

[quote="cmforte, post:6, topic:294224"]
Why do you believe Joeseph Smith? And why do you follow him? (As it were). And I mean that not as a challenge, but out of sincere curiosity.

-Chris

[/quote]

I believe Joseph Smith because the Holy Ghost has borne witness to me that his words are true. Not only that, but the Holy Ghost has testified to me that the book he translated, the Book of Mormon is of God.

Is this not the way to know anything of faith? Exercise a desire to believe, search for the truth through study and also by action, and then ask God if it is true? If it is true the Spirit itself will then bear witness to our spirit of the truth. "Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself" (John 7:16-17).


#8

And that, friends, is why we have so many varieties of Christianity. We all individually listen for word from the Holy Ghost. Problem being, of course, that either the Holy Spirit lies to us (not likely) or we don't hear Him properly. The Magisterium has listened to the Holy Spirit for 2,000 years. So I'll listen to them. Most of my Evangelical friends listen for the Holy Spirit, and none has heard any reference to Joseph Smith.


#9

[quote="cmforte, post:6, topic:294224"]
Why do you believe Joeseph Smith? And why do you follow him? (As it were). And I mean that not as a challenge, but out of sincere curiosity.

-Chris

[/quote]

Faith. Same reason you believe in the Catholic Church, the Pope, etc.


#10

Janderich: pointing to just one huge contradiction of scripture tubes entire bom & the man who invented it.

Jesus CLEARLY says in The Bible, the gold standard: NO marriage in heaven vs the 180 peculiar lds notion of “celestial” marriage. You believe you shalt be as GODS do you not? That notion has one, big problem; it first made it’s appearance in Genesis -> lies of the serpent -> Thou shalt not surely die & Thou shalt be as GODS! = very effective lies that have kept cropping up throughout history - why should the father of lies change what works? For a human to evolve into godhood is UNBIBLICAL.

How can this heavenly marriage/godhood of humans never exist in the Bible yet arrive 1800 years amazingly rather late on the human scene as “truth” This one point cleanly tubes “testimony” of one J Smith & his man-made BOM. Simply doesn’t fly.
Truth does not exist in 2 different forms and still be truth. :rolleyes:


#11

[quote="EviPolevhia, post:9, topic:294224"]
Faith. Same reason you believe in the Catholic Church, the Pope, etc.

[/quote]

Sorry, but I don't believe in the Catholic Church because of faith. In fact, I don't "believe" in the Catholic Church. I believe in Christ, and I believe He started a (ONE) Church, the Catholic/Orthodox churches (which were united as one before 1054). I researched the history of the RCC, the good and the bad, I am convinced of its Apotolic origin and heritage. I am not a Catholic because of faith. I am a christian because of faith. I am a Catholic because of the archaeological and documentary history of the Catholic Church. I am also a Catholic because I believe that it's theology does agree with Scripture, as I came out of a Sola Scriptura-dominated christian family.

And while certain popes, bishops, and priests did sin, sometimes greatly, I do not believe the entire Church did "fall away" into "apostasy" per Christ's promise that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it. I see no reason to believe Joseph Smith. But I could be wrong. Could you give me a reason other than "faith"? (Btw, I believe we should only have faith in God, not in any human. I have no "faith" in the Pope. I only follow the Pope because Christ (God) founded the papal office starting with with St. Peter).

-Chris


#12

Sometimes it’s not God answering. And again, my curiosity here is sincere. I told you why I’m a Catholic. Could it not have been the Holy Spirit that guided me, too?

-Chris


#13

[quote="cmforte, post:11, topic:294224"]
Sorry, but I don't believe in the Catholic Church because of faith. In fact, I don't "believe" in the Catholic Church. I believe in Christ, and I believe He started a (ONE) Church, the Catholic/Orthodox churches (which were united as one before 1054).

[/quote]

I meant what I said in a general way. Obviously a simple forum post online cannot possibly describe the reasons for belief for every single member of a denomination. I do think though you take more things on faith then you realize. You have a different understanding of the exact same scriptures then do Mormons, Methodists, Baptists, and every other group who follows the exact same Christ. But each group relies on God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit to guide them (i.e., Faith) in your understanding of the Christian Religion.

And do you not also have faith that the Catholic Church's teachings are true? Specifically when something is said ex cathedra? If several years from now something came from Rome ex cathedra, you would take it on faith. Else you would not be a Catholic I think. Baptists too have faith in God yet come up with much different conclusions then you do on a number of issues. Because of differences in faith. Faith that their interpretations and beliefs are correct.

I can give you no other reason to believe in Smith. I'm not even Christian, let alone Mormon. Just calling it as I see it. I can't think of any other reason why someone would accept that con man's words. :(


#14

[quote="EviPolevhia, post:13, topic:294224"]
I meant what I said in a general way. Obviously a simple forum post online cannot possibly describe the reasons for belief for every single member of a denomination. I do think though you take more things on faith then you realize. You have a different understanding of the exact same scriptures then do Mormons, Methodists, Baptists, and every other group who follows the exact same Christ. But each group relies on God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit to guide them (i.e., Faith) in your understanding of the Christian Religion.

So this isn't as simple as just faith? But faith in how they interpret Scripture and Church history? I didn't get that in your post.

And do you not also have faith that the Catholic Church's teachings are true? Specifically when something is said ex cathedra? If several years from now something came from Rome ex cathedra, you would take it on faith. Else you would not be a Catholic I think.

It would have to line up with historic christian teaching, with Sacred Scripture and Tradition. It's not true simply because the Pope says it. For example, if the Pope said ex cathedra

, "Jesus isn't God," then I woudn't agree (and I think there would be a huge revolution in the Church) Again, my "faith" is not in the Pope or any human being.

Baptists too have faith in God yet come up with much different conclusions then you do on a number of issues. Because of differences in faith. Faith that their interpretations and beliefs are correct.

Then that is not just "faith". The differences are based on different interpretations of Scripture. That is a reason I could logically accept, not, "I just have faith in Joseph Smith." **Why **

do you have faith in Joseph Smith? What was it about him that causes you to have faith in him? What was about his revelation that causes you to agree with it? It's not simply "just faith." That is a cop-out. My being a Catholic is not based on "just faith." It's based on an interpretation of Scripture and of Church history.

I can give you no other reason to believe in Smith.

Why not?

I'm not even Christian, let alone Mormon.

Then why did you answer?

Just calling it as I see it.

You see it wrong.

I can't think of any other reason why someone would accept that con man's words. :(

[/quote]

Why not? Maybe an actual Mormon can. I'm sure there are some Scripture passages they can cite. I'm sure they have some interpretation of Church history. Something that caused them to agree with Joseph Smith that there was a "Great Apostasy" and the LDS is the restored Christian faith. I'm sure they can say more than, "it's because of faith."

-Chris


#15

Oh they’ll quote Scripture and interpretation and divine revelation and whatever else. But actually -believing- those comes to faith.


#16

I don’t think you understand what the word “faith” means. Outside of the dictionary definition, to most lay people it means “believing with no reason to,” or “belief with no evidence to support it.” It’s a cop-out in most circumstances. Basically it is saying, “just because.” “Why?” “Just because!” “What is the reason?” “It’s just faith!!” In other words, “I have no reason!!” But as I pointed out, they do have reasons why they believe Joseph Smith, so it’s not “just because,” “just faith.”

-Chris


#17

Outside dictionary definitions aren't definitions.


#18

[quote="EviPolevhia, post:17, topic:294224"]
Outside dictionary definitions aren't definitions.

[/quote]

Ok then (from Merriam-Webster Dictioanry On-Line):

plural *faiths *

Definition of FAITH

1

a: allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1): fidelity to one's promises (2): sincerity of intentions

2

a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1*): firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust *

3

: something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially: a system of religious beliefs

— on faith

-Chris


#19

I'm sorry there must've been a mix up in communication. I think we're both arguing for the same point here,


#20

[quote="EviPolevhia, post:19, topic:294224"]
I'm sorry there must've been a mix up in communication. I think we're both arguing for the same point here,

[/quote]

When it comes to why I am a Catholic, it's not based on some blind trust or "faith," I have actual reasons. And I'm sure most Mormons do, too. Maybe I musunderstood you, but saying simply it is "faith" doesn't cut it.

-Chris


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