Mortal Sin and Habituation

The CCC definition of “masturbation” does not help discussion.
As it defines it with total deliberation that suggests if anyone asks about “masturbation” then we must say “if you say you masturbated then it is always mortally sinful - ie fully imputable.”

Of course most people really just mean the outward action physical action by use of that word. Therefore if there is any hint at all that it was not fully deliberate then, by CCC definition, it was not even “masturbation.”

That leads to the awkward statement that, according to the CCC definition, a “venial act of masturbation” is impossible! Or have I missed something BookCat?

…such is not from the CCC. But the CDF

And actually that is the person question in the original post.

Yes it is still masturbation (unless one is say asleep). Can there be cases where a person engaged in masturbation and due lack of full knowledge or deliberate consent -committed not a mortal sin but a venial sin? Yes. The act is of course remains grave matter -but the persons sin is venial if there is sin. But again the CDF notes: “But in general, the absence of serious responsibility must not be presumed; this would be to misunderstand people’s moral capacity.”

Such is not the case.

And I have been quite precise thanks.

.

Yes it is still masturbation (unless one is say asleep). Can there be cases where a person engaged in masturbation and due lack of full knowledge or deliberate consent -committed not a mortal sin but a venial sin? Yes. The act is of course remains grave matter -but the persons sin is venial if there is sin. But again the CDF notes: “But in general, the absence of serious responsibility must not be presumed; this would be to misunderstand people’s moral capacity.”

Here is the first instance that the phrase “sins of weakness” was used in this thread…and it was I who introduced it - explaining what I meant.

later

I think not.
Come on give us a break!
When a layperson asks a question about “masturbation” they hardly can be assumed to use the CCC’s very precise and nuanced philosophic definition :eek:.

They obviously mean something more external, physical, generic and possibly confused - that is afterall why lay-persons ask questions on this topic in the first place for heaven’s sake.

So when we get thrown a question of masturbation lets just start out assuming they simply mean “jkg off”, to put it crudely, and discern the complete moral act slowly from there.

BTW what do you mean its not from the CCC but from the CDF?
Of course it is from both (though I haven’t checked out the original Latin of either yet).

*2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. *

How can an act of masturbation ever be venial if “deliberate” means fully free (ie full understanding and consent)?

Hmmmn, its the “later” bit that is the problem.

Obviously MrSnaith is coming from another direction than you started out (weakness of consent/understanding) if you have listened carefully to his questions/comments. So of course your reply came as a bit of a non-sequitor if not an outright contradiction to where the discussion had been going.

Yes I accept you tried to clarify later - though we still aren’t there yet.

I said my quote that you quoted -please see your post above forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=11698522&postcount=21

– was from the CDF not the CCC.

That is what I meant.

As to the OP - I was pointing out that the person themselves was asking about masturbation in the very first post -the question of the thread. Hence yes such is quite apt.

Deliberate there means intentional. On purpose. As opposed to for example - being asleep.

Many may engage in such without knowing that such is gravely sinful…in invincible ignorance or in their invincible ignorance they are mistake that it is venial.

Context. A different use of the term “deliberate” is meant there.

It is not there meaning that if one lacks the full knowledge and complete consent it is not masturbation. Such is still masturbation. It is still the grave matter of masturbation even though the person is not culpable of committing a mortal sin in a particular case -but of venial etc.

Hence yes such is quite apt.
[/quote]

Here is a brief summary of mortal and venial sin from the Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI

**395. When does one commit a mortal sin?
**
1855-1861
1874

One commits a mortal sin when there are simultaneously present: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. This sin destroys charity in us, deprives us of sanctifying grace, and, if unrepented, leads us to the eternal death of hell. It can be forgiven in the ordinary way by means of the sacraments of Baptism and of Penance or Reconciliation.

396. When does one commit a venial sin?

1862-1864
1875

One commits a venial sin, which is essentially different from a mortal sin, when the matter involved is less serious or, even if it is grave, when full knowledge or complete consent are absent. Venial sin does not break the covenant with God but it weakens charity and manifests a disordered affection for created goods. It impedes the progress of a soul in the exercise of the virtues and in the practice of moral good. It merits temporal punishment which purifies.

Let me get this right…
You think that anyone who posts a question on Catholic.com using the word “masturbation” means exactly what the Magisterium means when it defines that word?

When MrSnaith rightly defines an act of mortal sin as:

  1. The sin must be of a grave and serious nature
  2. There must be full knowledge (that it is a grave sin)
  3. There must be full consent of the will (in committing the sin)
    …which of these three fonts does your understanding of “deliberation” relate to and how?

From your CCC quotes below “One commits a venial sin…when full knowledge or complete consent are absent” it would seem “full deliberation” is the same as fulfilling (2) and (3). Therefore, if deliberation is partial, we have no act of mortal sin.

Now you also maintain that the CCC definition of masturbation which uses the word 'deliberation" is a different use of that word?
Could you explain that opinion while relating it to the above definition of an act of mortal sin and the use of “deliberation” there?

Some specific Magisterial quotes explicity referring to these alleged two definitions of the word “deliberation” would also be helpful.

If a person is asking about the sin of masturbation --it is likely they know what such is -for they read these forums where such is discussed often.

I have already.

One is dealing with two different contexts of a word.

CCC “By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs…”

“Deliberate” there is not the same as the term with “full deliberation” but rather in the ordinary sense of “deliberate” -that is on purpose or “intentionally” - just as I might deliberately go to the kitchen and get out the milk.

A person who is in invincible ignorance and thus innocenty believes it is not grave matter --is still engaged in the “deliberate stimulation…” -it is done on purpose - it is not some unconscious act. But they do not have the “full knowledge of the moral nature of the act” . The word “deliberate” there is referring to the conscious - on purpose action.

But to place masturbation in the context of the three aspects needed for there to be mortal sin- “masturbation” in the way defined in the CCC there - is the “grave matter” (deliberate as in “intentional” as opposed to say a person who is asleep and thus unconscious and not doing the act deliberately but reflexively and unconsciously).

If that grave matter -is done with full knowledge and deliberate consent - then one has committed a mortal sin.

And an explicit Magisterial moral theology source for your understanding…?

For myself I find the CCC is not usually sloppy when it comes to use of such words. If “the object intended” (ie font 1 below) is what was mean by “deliberation” in the CCC’s definition of masturbation one wonders why they did not use the correct word (“intention”).

Tis simply how the language got used there -as I explained in the last post above.

And there is no word “deliberation” there in that definition.

The word is “deliberate”.

The word deliberate in that context means simply what I have noted.

When writing one can use various words. Especially when a text is worked on by many different hands and coming from many different sources.

Tis simply how the language got used there -as I explained in the last post above. Likely cause they were drawing on earlier documents that used that choice of words.

And there is no word “deliberation” there in that definition.

The word is “deliberate”.

The word deliberate in that context means simply what I have noted.

When writing one can use various words. Especially when a text is worked on by many different hands and coming from many different sources.

“Deliberate” there means it is a human act - an intentional act --not something done while say asleep…

A personal choice. I choose to do this here and now. It is not an accident. My tripping and dropping the glass was not deliberate - it was an accident.

When I choose to study theology - that was a deliberate act. As when I choose to marry my wife. It was a human act. A personal choice.

When I rolled over in bed during sleep last night while I was asleep -it was not a human act - it was not deliberate.

The term “deliberate” in that particular definition (and the Church says of course more -the CCC is not intended to be an exhaustive moral text or exhaustive source of Church Teaching) --that phrase “deliberate stimulation” means stimulation that was intentionally done - not something say that happened when unconscious in sleep.

The CCC (in 1860) for example says: “Sin committed through malice, by* deliberate* choice of evil,* is the gravest*.”

Is not all mortal sin “deliberate”? Yes.

(mortal sin) “implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice.” (1859)

So there must be a different *context *here for the use of that word here.

There is.

The person is intentionally choosing the evil as evil. They are not only committing the mortal sin with deliberate consent fully knowing it is a grave matter --they are deliberately choosing the evil --as evil.

The sin of malice is of the gravest - because there the deliberate choice of evil. One is choosing the evil as evil. Not choosing say some disordered pleasure for that pleasure --one is choosing the evil deliberately as evil.

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.