Mosque opponents target the evils of Islam


#1

Gilroy Dispatch:

Mosque opponents target the evils of Islam

After months of arguing over county building codes in an effort to keep the proposed Cordoba Center Islamic mosque and cemetery out of San Martin, the Morgan Hill/Gilroy Patriots are turning the debate to the threat of Islamic presence in the South County with a public event this Saturday.
Guest lecturer Peter Friedman, expert in Islam studies and administrator of the website Islamthreat.com, will be speaking on topics such as “Islam – Threat to America,” and “Islam and Women,” at the Gilroy Library from 10:30 a.m. to 3:30 p.m.

“If the Muslims are going to be our neighbors, we need to know more about them,” said Susan Mister, Gilroy resident and member of the Morgan Hill/Gilroy Patriots.
Mister said that the main issue the organization continues to hold against the Cordoba Center is the threat it presents to groundwater, noise and traffic in San Martin.
“It’s not about religion. They can build elsewhere, it’s just that San Martin cannot accommodate them,” she said. “This event is more about providing the community a chance to learn about a religion that might be coming to our backyards.”

Friedman's lecture was planned partly in response to the public forums that the South County Islamic Center has hosted in the past, where they have invited the community to learn about the Islamic faith.
“Friedman is someone who can speak from a different angle, a chance for the community to learn the truth about the Koran,” Mister said.

"It's not about religion" -- tell it to the Marines.
These "Patriots" are just like the Know-Nothings of the 18440s-50s who burned Catholic churches and convents -- I suppose using zoning laws is an improvement.


#2

Your comments are a bit... confusing. The Marines part, I can't place in conjunction with your second comment.

What is wrong with a community saying they don't want an islamic center? No false religion is given free reign in Catholic doctrine, and moreover the community seems to not want them there.

From both the traditional Catholic perspective and the understanding of the common good as concerns subsidiarity, which is in line with the individual to the community level, it seems this is pretty much a shut case for this particular community.

There are zoning issues. Perhaps it's deeper and more internal than that, as an impetus to say "no", but this is beside the point.


#3

[quote="MarMax, post:2, topic:295940"]
Your comments are a bit... confusing. The Marines part, I can't place in conjunction with your second comment.

[/quote]

Sorry, just a bit of slang "tell it to the Marines = that's BS"
idioms.thefreedictionary.com/tell+it+to+the+marines

What is wrong with a community saying they don't want an islamic center? No false religion is given free reign in Catholic doctrine, and moreover the community seems to not want them there.

What's wrong is a community saying they don't want blacks or Hindus or any other group? It's bigotry pure and simple.

From both the traditional Catholic perspective and the understanding of the common good as concerns subsidiarity, which is in line with the individual to the community level, it seems this is pretty much a shut case for this particular community.

There are zoning issues. Perhaps it's deeper and more internal than that, as an impetus to say "no", but this is beside the point.

There are no zoning issues, or at least none cited by the opponents. They are talking about the threat of Islam, not traffic or parking problems or whatever. And this is happening all over the country.

As Catholics we are opposing Obamacare on grounds of religious freedom but if we don't stand up while other faiths are denied their religious freedom we're hypocrites.


#4

Ah, OK. I've always associated "Tell it to the Marines" with "try it and get the business end of a bayonet" (My favorite uncle was a Marine...). Was not aware the phrase had been flipped by modernist language to mean something other than what it really means- try and see what happens.

Blacks are not the same as hindus or any other religious group. Blacks are not a religion, but a race/ethnicity of people.

Islam is, by its own admission, a threat to not only America but Christendom. Similarly, one cannot claim Catholicism and say they support gay "marriage", abortion, etc. The muslim is duty bound to seek the spread of islam, destruction of Christianity, etc.

Religious freedom, properly applied, is to engage in a religious direction of free will, which is properly understood as: 1) religion demanded by God- Catholicism 2) proper application of free will- worship and honor due to God-- The Catholic Church.

Certainly muslims have free will to reject God as He has directed via the Church (Baltimore Catechism #3 Q-513), and certainly, if they are of good will and do not die in mortal sin are going to find themselves Catholic in heaven, after purgatory, if invincibly ignorant on earth.

But Islam is a false religion and has no clout or legitimacy insofar as we Catholics are concerned.

You're not arguing for Catholicism, but Americanism: a condemned heresy.


#5

Me too! :slight_smile:


#6

[quote="didymus, post:1, topic:295940"]
Gilroy Dispatch:

"It's not about religion" -- tell it to the Marines.
These "Patriots" are just like the Know-Nothings of the 18440s-50s who burned Catholic churches and convents -- I suppose using zoning laws is an improvement.

[/quote]

The Muslims only understand dialogue with the argument of the sword. If anyone is against, please an example that is not "I have a (one) friend that it is not like that!".


#7

[quote="MarMax, post:2, topic:295940"]

What is wrong with a community saying they don't want an islamic center? No false religion is given free reign in Catholic doctrine

[/quote]

Vatican II, in Dignitatis Humanae 4, said:

Religious communities also have the right not to be hindered, either by legal measures or by administrative action on the part of government, in the selection, training, appointment, and transferral of their own ministers, in communicating with religious authorities and communities abroad, in erecting buildings for religious purposes, and in the acquisition and use of suitable funds or properties.

So no, according to modern Catholic teaching a community does not have the right to say "we don't want any of your kind here." It does not have the right to prevent people of a particular religious group from "erecting buildings for religious purposes."

From both the traditional Catholic perspective and the understanding of the common good as concerns subsidiarity, which is in line with the individual to the community level, it seems this is pretty much a shut case for this particular community.

I never fail to be astonished at the number of things subsidiarity can be made to mean. I've almost stopped being shocked by the people who think it means libertarianism, and now apparently it's a free pass for religious persecution.

And if you think this is too strong, just imagine a Protestant community trying to prevent Catholics building a church.

There are zoning issues. Perhaps it's deeper and more internal than that, as an impetus to say "no", but this is beside the point.

No, it's not beside the point. The question to be asked is whether other religious buildings and similar kinds of structures are allowed to be built in this particular area. If Muslims are being singled out, then it's religious discrimination, period.

Edwin


#8

Well, of course they would say that’s different.
Just because I’m a bigot doesn’t give you the right to be one.


#9

[quote="didymus, post:1, topic:295940"]
Gilroy Dispatch:

"It's not about religion" -- tell it to the Marines.
These "Patriots" are just like the Know-Nothings of the 18440s-50s who burned Catholic churches and convents -- I suppose using zoning laws is an improvement.

[/quote]

How nasty. This is simply the attempt to Christianize the land use process, which is unconstitutional, plain and simple.


#10

And defense of Christendom should be used as a legitimate basis in land use policy? Should we replace the city planning commissions of the world with offices of Christendom defense and the Crusades?

What’s funny is that in defending “Christendom,” the Crusaders helped Islam spread! Venetians sacking Constantinople directly and causally contributed to the fall of the Byzantine Empire – rather, the Roman Empire – in 1453. So don’t be so sure that defending Christendom is holy!

Similarly, one cannot claim Catholicism and say they support gay “marriage”, abortion, etc.

Irrelevant here and hyperbolic.

Religious freedom, properly applied, is to engage in a religious direction of free will, which is properly understood as: 1) religion demanded by God- Catholicism 2) proper application of free will- worship and honor due to God-- The Catholic Church.

And how do you remain bound by the Constitution in such a construction of the civil law?

But Islam is a false religion and has no clout or legitimacy insofar as we Catholics are concerned.

True, but such a statement has no basis in U.S. jurisprudence.


#11

[quote="confucius, post:6, topic:295940"]
The Muslims only understand dialogue with the argument of the sword. If anyone is against, please an example that is not "I have a (one) friend that it is not like that!".

[/quote]

What a repellent argument. You clearly don't understand Muslims. This kind of statement destroys evangelism. You need to understand someone to preach the gospel to them. As John Paul II wrote in Redemptoris missio about evanglizing other cultures, someone reaching out to Muslims must engage in:
"understanding, appreciating, fostering and evangelizing the culture of the environment in which they are working, and therefore of equipping themselves to communicate effectively with it, adopting a manner of living which is a sign of gospel witness and of solidarity with the people."
We have seen what "argument by force" brings: the abysmal failure upon failure that was the Crusades. Or the loss of Christian population in Iraq since 2003.

I find the best way to understand Islam is to talk with Muslims and read unbiased works about them.

Examples of dialogue:
uscatholic.org/Muslim-Catholic_dialogue


#12

[quote="Contarini, post:7, topic:295940"]
Vatican II, in Dignitatis Humanae 4, said: ...

[/quote]

I think the key words in that statement are "for religious purposes".


#13

[quote="sedonaman, post:12, topic:295940"]
I think the key words in that statement are "for religious purposes".

[/quote]

Right. As opposed, for instance, to foreign operatives who come into a country to stir up rebellion and plot the assassination of government figures under the pretext of religion, and those residents of the country who harbor them.

I am referring, of course, to the Romish priests whose bloody executions by the Elizabethan government had nothing, nothing whatever to do with religious persecution, given that the Bishop of Rome dares to make spiritual claims that have political implications. . . . . :shrug:

Edwin


#14

[quote="Contarini, post:13, topic:295940"]
Right. As opposed, for instance, to foreign operatives who come into a country to stir up rebellion and plot the assassination of government figures under the pretext of religion, and those residents of the country who harbor them.

I am referring, of course, to the Romish priests whose bloody executions by the Elizabethan government had nothing, nothing whatever to do with religious persecution, given that the Bishop of Rome dares to make spiritual claims that have political implications. . . . . :shrug:

Edwin

[/quote]

At first I thought you were talking about the Mafia.


#15

[quote="didymus, post:3, topic:295940"]
What's wrong is a community saying they don't want blacks or Hindus or any other group? It's bigotry pure and simple.

[/quote]

Not necessarily. No one said they don't want Muslims themselves in the neighborhood. They just don't want an Islamic center.

I go to a rather liberal university with many, many Muslims in attendance. I'm perfectly fine with that. But I don't want an Islamic center or a Mosque in my neighborhood. It's not the Muslims. It's that darned call to prayer. I find it ear-splittingly annoying and it would wake me up two hours before I get up every single morning.


#16

[quote="Farsight001, post:15, topic:295940"]
Not necessarily. No one said they don't want Muslims themselves in the neighborhood. They just don't want an Islamic center.

I go to a rather liberal university with many, many Muslims in attendance. I'm perfectly fine with that. But I don't want an Islamic center or a Mosque in my neighborhood. It's not the Muslims. It's that darned call to prayer. I find it ear-splittingly annoying and it would wake me up two hours before I get up every single morning.

[/quote]

How do you feel about church bells?


#17

[quote="Publisher, post:16, topic:295940"]
How do you feel about church bells?

[/quote]

They aren't grating on my ears nor do they wake me up. They're soothing and calming, not annoying and off key and don't last nearly 5 minutes or get played when I'm trying to sleep in the first place. So I don't mind them.


#18

[quote="Farsight001, post:17, topic:295940"]
They aren't grating on my ears nor do they wake me up. They're soothing and calming, not annoying and off key and don't last nearly 5 minutes or get played when I'm trying to sleep in the first place. So I don't mind them.

[/quote]

That's a fairly subjective reaction, not exactly something to rely on when determining a question of justice.

The fact that Muslims did not traditionally allow Christian churches to ring bells is often cited, rightly I think, by Christian critics of Islam as an example of "dhimmitude"--the way Muslims kept minorities in subjection even while "tolerating" them.

But we have to be fair and consistent about this. I get the impression that a lot of Christians effectively want Muslims to be "dhimmis"--they don't mind having Muslims around as long as they lie low and respect the majority Christian character of Western countries.

Edwin


#19

[quote="Farsight001, post:17, topic:295940"]
They aren't grating on my ears nor do they wake me up. They're soothing and calming, not annoying and off key and don't last nearly 5 minutes or get played when I'm trying to sleep in the first place. So I don't mind them.

[/quote]

I actually live about 0.8 miles from a mosque and work about 0.1 miles from a mosque. I have never been able to hear their call to prayer, nor been able to detect anything unpleasant associated with their operation. Of course, I'd prefer they be Catholic, but that's a subjective response not an objective measurement of the mosque's impact.


#20

In what universe is this a question of justice?


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