Mother Of Our Lord


#1

If The Price Of Original Sin Is Death,and Mary Was Born Without Orignal Sin Then Why Did She Die ?


#2

She’s not dead.


#3

Why would you think she died? We don’t.


#4

Note item 5 in the Assumption section of the page at this site:

rosary-center.org/glorious.htm

To this point, I believed Mary died and was then assumed into heaven. Wrong? If so I’ll change my meditation while praying the Holy Rosary.


#5

I have read one theologian who believed that Mary died in imitation of her son, Jesus. He chose death on the cross, and she chose death at the end of her natural life. However, it’s my understanding that the Church has never really said anything either way about her death. Only that Mary was assumed body and soul to heaven–whether she “died” first has never been determined.


#6

[quote=Will Pick]If The Price Of Original Sin Is Death,and Mary Was Born Without Orignal Sin Then Why Did She Die ?
[/quote]

Scripture refers to two “deaths”, one of our human body, one of our eternal soul. The death of our soul is the absence of God, eternal damnation. This is why when Satan tells Eve (Gn 3)she will not die if she disobeys God he is deceiving her. He leads her to believe nothing will happen, however she does indeed “die”, not the death of her human body, but the death in that she and all humanity are removed from the presence of God.
In this sense none of the saints have “died”.
Matthew 10:39 - He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
Matthew 16:25 - For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Matthew 20:28 - Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Mark 8:35 - For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.
Mark 10:45 - For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Luke 9:24 - For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
Luke 17:33 - Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
John 12:25 - He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
Romans 5:10 - For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
1 Corinthians 15:19 - If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1 John 5:11 - And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Mary and all of the saints are still alive, in fact much more alive than you and I.
May the peace and love of our Lord, Jesus the Christ, be with you


#7

[quote=alyssa]Why would you think she died? We don’t.
[/quote]

Actually, many of us do.

The Church does not definitively teach one way or the other whether Mary died, only that at the end of her life in Earth she was assumed body and soul into heaven:

[quote=Lumen Gentium, paragraph 59]59. But since it has pleased God not to manifest solemnly the mystery cf the salvation of the human race before He would pour forth the Spirit promised by Christ, we see the apostles before the day of Pentecost “persevering with one mind in prayer with the women and Mary the Mother of Jesus, and with His brethren”,(296) and Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation. Finally, the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all guilt of original sin,(12*) on the completion of her earthly sojourn, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory,(13*) and exalted by the Lord as Queen of the universe, that she might be the more fully confimed to her Son, the Lord of lords(297) and the conqueror of sin and death.(l4*)
[/quote]

If Mary died, as many believe she did in imitation of her Son and in cooperation with His work of Redemption, this is compatible with Catholicism. If Mary was granted the gift of attaining Heaven without experiencing bodily death by virtue of her Immaculate Conception and perpetual sinlessness, this is also compatible with Catholicism. As we have no definite historical evidence either way, and as the Church has not defined this particular issue, the question is open.

[quote=PeterC]…To this point, I believed Mary died and was then assumed into heaven. Wrong? If so I’ll change my meditation while praying the Holy Rosary.
[/quote]

As this question has not been defined either way, anyone is free to meditate on this Mystery in whichever way is most helpful to his or her prayer. I find it useful to sometimes to consider the Assumption with the presumption that Mary died, other times with the presumption that she did not. To my mind, the presumption that she did die makes the most sense to me and best helps me to relate to our mother. But occasionally meditating with the presumtion that she did not die brings to mind other aspects of the Immaculate Conception, and also helps keep me from judging that those who hold this thought are necessarily wrong.


#8

[quote=WhatMeWorry] However, it’s my understanding that the Church has never really said anything either way about her death. Only that Mary was assumed body and soul to heaven–whether she “died” first has never been determined.
[/quote]

Correct. The Church doesn’t say whether or not Mary died:

“…that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.”

  • Pope Pius XII, Munificentissimus Deus, 44.

#9

Your premise is flawed to begin with. Jesus was not born with original sin, and He died. Jesus died and was resurrected, and is indeed the firstborn of all of us, who will die, be resurrected, and be judged to spend eternity in either heaven or hell.

Enoch and Elijah were born with original sin. Neither one, according to the Bible, has “died.”

So why is it so hard to picture Mary: a. Being born without original sin. Neither Adam nor Eve was born with original sin, right?
b. Either “not dying” a la Enoch and Elijah. . .assumed into heaven. . .or dying and being assumed into heaven body and soul (we know that Elijah was assumed in a whirlwind and HIS body and soul are if not in heaven, certainly not on earth nor in hell).

Finally, those who have “died” in Christ are no longer dead. He tells us that over and over and over again. Alive in Christ, their souls in heaven are more “alive” than we, with soul and body, on earth–because THEY will never die again, and WE certainly must die before we get to (hopefully) heaven.


#10

[quote=WhatMeWorry]I have read one theologian who believed that Mary died in imitation of her son, Jesus.
[/quote]

I’ve never heard that before, but it makes perfect sense. It would have been one final and perfect act of faith.


#11

[quote=Will Pick]If The Price Of Original Sin Is Death,and Mary Was Born Without Orignal Sin Then Why Did She Die ?
[/quote]

Why did Jesus die? He layed down his life. I believe he also brought Marys life to an end and assumed her into heaven as a pre-figurement of the resurrection of the dead and hope for the church. Mary is the perfect picture of the “pure and spotless bride” and she has gone before the church to give us hope of the good things that await us. Jesus had to become a man and die for us to show us that God would triumph over death. he also showed us that through our Blessed Mother. My opinion of course but this is what I believe.


#12

Actually, whether or not Mary died is debatable. Church dogma leaves this open. The dogma of the Assumption of Mary was proclaimed by Pope Pius XII in 1950 in his Papal Bull “Munificentissimus Deus”. The actual text which defines the dogma is as follows:

[quote=Pope Pius XII, “Munificentissimus Deus”] …by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own authority, we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.
[/quote]

(taken from papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12MUNIF.HTM)

Note the phrase “having completed the course of her earthly life” is an essential part of the definition of this dogma.

Nevertheless, whether Mary “died” or not does not alter the fact that Mary’s body and soul was in fact taken into heaven.


#13

Mary is in heaven now and that is all that matters. She didn’t have original sin.

However if she died, it doesn’t imply she had original sin because if thats the case then Jesus would have original sin too, but we all know that is not true!

Jesus died becuase dieing for someone else is the ultimate gesture of Love!

So whether Mary died or not is not up to us to decide but the Church! But by this time it is a moot point for the Church to decide because all that matters now is that she is in heaven…And deservedly so!

GOD bless


#14

[quote=auhsoj88]So whether Mary died or not is not up to us to decide but the Church! But by this time it is a moot point for the Church to decide because all that matters now is that she is in heaven…And deservedly so!
[/quote]

I agree, the bottom line is that she is in heaven.

But I personally believe that the Church has decided that Mary did die, according to the Bull of Pius XII “Munificentissimus Deus” which I mentioned before.


#15

[quote=Fidei Defensor]I agree, the bottom line is that she is in heaven.

But I personally believe that the Church has decided that Mary did die, according to the Bull of Pius XII “Munificentissimus Deus” which I mentioned before.
[/quote]

Fidei, you need to discern your vocation. From the replies you’ve written, I’ve gathered that you are well formed in your faith, not afraid to reprove, correct or defend the Church and you are loyal to the Pope (regardless of who he is).

The Church needs more priests with the qualities that you possess.


#16

Don’t the Eastern Rites believe in something called dormition (That Mary just fell asleep???) Thanks and God Bless. **Fidei Defensor, **yes you should pray and discern your vocation. But should you decide God’s Will is to be married, your children may have vocations to the priesthood or religious. And if you are single as similar to a priest, your spiritual children may become priests or religious. Any way, the Church will be edified by your presence in staying true to the Faith. :slight_smile: As a youngin’ to a youngin’ until you take yours vows whatever they may be, always keep your soul open to God’s Call. May God Bless you through Grace in whatever His Will is. Thanks and God Bless.


#17

[quote=Max Kolbe]Why did Jesus die? He layed down his life. I believe he also brought Marys life to an end and assumed her into heaven as a pre-figurement of the resurrection of the dead and hope for the church. Mary is the perfect picture of the “pure and spotless bride” and she has gone before the church to give us hope of the good things that await us. Jesus had to become a man and die for us to show us that God would triumph over death. he also showed us that through our Blessed Mother. My opinion of course but this is what I believe.
[/quote]

We don’t know that Mary died. But then did not Jesus who is God die? Death is not the issue…since death is a transition from this life to eternity. The result of death is corruption of the flesh back into dust…and that did NOT happen to Mary or Jesus


#18

I think when asking the question of whether or not Mary died it’s important to properly define death. Death can be defined as the separation of the body and the soul. But if one holds that Mary “died” one must at the same time hold that Mary’s sacred body remained perfectly and completely incorrupt without any kind or degree of decay or destruction whatsover. But if a body remains in such a state can it really be said to have been separated from the soul disposed toward it?

Perhaps it could be said if one wishes to affirm that Mary “died” that her “death” was unlike any other. Perhaps if Mary did indeed “die” her utterly incorrupt body while seeming to have undergone death and separation from the soul, not showing any signs of animation, was in fact imbued with the presence of Mary’s soul and thus of Mary – perhaps akin to how the Eucharist while seeming to be to our senses mere bread and wine is in fact the real presence of Our Lord, even though the eucharistic species remain inert and seemingly inanimate. Perhaps just as the mystery of the Eucharist is beyond our present and perhaps even all understanding, so also may be the mystery of the dormition of Our Lady beyond our present and perhaps even all understanding.

If Mary did “die” it is certain not only that her body remained entirely incorrupt, but also that her “death” was entirely peaceful. Some say that she died out of her love for God. That her love for God and desire to be with HIm actually somehow caused her death.


#19

[quote=Fidei Defensor]Actually, whether or not Mary died is debatable. Church dogma leaves this open. The dogma of the Assumption of Mary was proclaimed by Pope Pius XII in 1950 in his Papal Bull “Munificentissimus Deus”. The actual text which defines the dogma is as follows:

Nevertheless, whether Mary “died” or not does not alter the fact that Mary’s body and soul was in fact taken into heaven.
[/quote]

She died. That’s it.

Everyone knew she died until some people tried to pretend that since the church was not specific on that point, she might not have.

We have to stop mythologizing about this, she died.


#20

[quote=Hesychios]She died. That’s it.

Everyone knew she died until some people tried to pretend that since the church was not specific on that point, she might not have.

We have to stop mythologizing about this, she died.
[/quote]

You presumably have some source of information denied to the Church for 2000 years. It would be good to see.


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