Movement to ONE Teaching Authority/Church in Islam

It seems to me that there are many peaceful, loving Muslims. There are also many who are not.

My question to the Muslims on this forum:

Is there any internal movement within your religion to have ONE teaching authority? It might mean a break with in the Islam religion but could bring all peace-loving Muslims together. This “sect” could then denounce all other Muslims unless they too joined and adhered to the good traits you espouse all good Muslims should have.

Can this be done? Are you interested? And Why?

I’ve brought this up with people before myself too. I have a Muslim friend here who says that in order to do that, they would have to get the political leaders (presidents, prime ministers, whatever…) of each “Muslim” country to agree to elect one. However, he said he thought that was pretty unlikely. What I don’t get is why the political leaders of those Muslim countries (I still don’t know what would qualify a country as “Muslim”) would be the ones with the authority to do this.

Another guy I talked to online from Pakistan said they needed to bring the Caliph back as well. He seemed to strongly think that Muslims needed a leader of some sort because it has become so fragmented, but I don’t recall too many of the details of that conversation.

[quote=Donna P]It seems to me that there are many peaceful, loving Muslims. There are also many who are not.

My question to the Muslims on this forum:

Is there any internal movement within your religion to have ONE teaching authority? It might mean a break with in the Islam religion but could bring all peace-loving Muslims together. This “sect” could then denounce all other Muslims unless they too joined and adhered to the good traits you espouse all good Muslims should have.

Can this be done? Are you interested? And Why?
[/quote]

What in particular do you want Muslims to denounce?

In the end when you get down to the basics, Islam is a religion between a soul and its creator. There are no churches or a Vatican or a body of people that say we are inspired by God, this is what you should believe in. We have religious bodies but in the end all that they are is learned people who try their best to explain God to us. But they are not responsible for what we believe in. We could take what they say and do it or choose not to do it. In the end God is going to ask you why you believed what you believed because He gave us reason, knowledge and intuition for a reason, so that we can use them to become closer to God. How do we know what is right, we have the quran and the sunnah as guides and on the major issues of faith the Muslims as a whole agree on most of issues, one or two don’t. Btw, what me and the other Muslims on this forum practice is mainstream Islam, it is the core; it is the ones who deviated from the straight path that are receiving air time and propagated around the world as the real face of Islam. In fact Fundamental Islam did not come into existence until after WWI (and didn’t really gain much until after WWll) when the Ottoman Empire fell and Europe colonized the Middle East. It came about as a defense mechanized to stop foreign invasion into their country.

wa salam

A Muslim can not ever denounce another Muslim as a non-believer. EVER. Because only they and God know what is in their hearts. The only way you can denounce someone is if they break an article of faith, like one of the five pillars Islam or one of the six pillars of faith.

wa salam

[quote=Ahimsa]What in particular do you want Muslims to denounce?
[/quote]

The violence. The violent intolerance of people preaching their faith. Terrorism in the “name” of Islam. You (Muslims) are not a united religion. You do not have one voice like the Catholic Church. So when violent terrorism breaks out and the perpetrators say it is in the name of Islam - you can truly - in one voice - denounce these heretics of the Islam faith.

In addition - as a united faith - you can share you faith of Love and Peace and Holiness much easier. The media does not help you but neither does the fact that there seems to be no voice to unite you and tell the world the good that is Islam.

[quote=fatuma]A Muslim can not ever denounce another Muslim as a non-believer. EVER. Because only they and God know what is in their hearts. The only way you can denounce someone is if they break an article of faith, like one of the five pillars Islam or one of the six pillars of faith.

wa salam
[/quote]

That is sad. As Catholics, we are called to defend our faith…even unto death. And we are called to call those in error - even a priest - and bring them back into the Faith.

God guides our church and makes us ONE in faith with Him. We must turn our will to His Will. If we all choose to do what ever WE believe the faith to be - then there is no faith at all. Only a selfish godless shell.

Jesus was our shepherd. He gave us Peter as the first of many to guide His Church. While not all the appointed shepherds have been perfect, God has always made sure His Church is pure in her Teachings.

[quote=fatuma] We have religious bodies but in the end all that they are is learned people who try their best to explain God to us. But they are not responsible for what we believe in. We could take what they say and do it or choose not to do it. In the end God is going to ask you why you believed what you believed because He gave us reason, knowledge and intuition for a reason, so that we can use them to become closer to God. How do we know what is right, we have the quran and the sunnah as guides and on the major issues of faith the Muslims as a whole agree on most of issues, one or two don’t.
wa salam
[/quote]

Wow…I am saddened by this. What you say is that…

  1. Even if another Muslim does something wrong - you will never denounce him.
  2. Every one for himself in interpreting what God is saying…

So there is NO ONE on this planet who knows Mohammeds origonal intentions because interpretation is all left to yourselves…and we are all weak, imperfect humans.

[quote=Donna P]You (Muslims) are not a united religion. You do not have one voice like the Catholic Church. So when violent terrorism breaks out and the perpetrators say it is in the name of Islam - you can truly - in one voice - denounce these heretics of the Islam faith.
[/quote]

So does that mean that the horrendous violence done in the name of Christianity is all to be laid to the door of the Pope?

Edwin

In the Name of Allah,

What the sister was saying amounts to this… that no matter what the Muslim does, though we can denounce his ACTION, and can say that what he’s done is outside Islam, as long as he does not break the five pillars of faith and the 6 pillars of belief, we canNOT denounce him and pronounce takfeer on him (i.e. declare him to be a non-Muslim).

And as far as having one single united “church” or “school of thought”, well, that would take away the blessings of having different schools and having differend ideas.

I mean there is a diversity in rulings because of the fact that people think differently (each ruling is based on the Qur’an and the Sunnah), and that’s just a blessing for someone like me, who can follow what she can easily, within the confines of Shari’ah (or Islamic Law).

Hope that helped.

Peace,

Urooj.

[quote=Contarini]So does that mean that the horrendous violence done in the name of Christianity is all to be laid to the door of the Pope?

Edwin
[/quote]

My point is that there is no united voice/teaching. Muslims can interpret their faith anyway they want. Catholic do not.

By the way, all violence is wrong. Jesus never promised that everyone in his Church would be perfect…only that His Church would prevail in spite of the imperfections and even atrocities of others. So far He has done what he has said.

[quote=Urooj]In the Name of Allah,

What the sister was saying amounts to this… that no matter what the Muslim does, though we can denounce his ACTION, and can say that what he’s done is outside Islam, as long as he does not break the five pillars of faith and the 6 pillars of belief, we canNOT denounce him and pronounce takfeer on him (i.e. declare him to be a non-Muslim).

And as far as having one single united “church” or “school of thought”, well, that would take away the blessings of having different schools and having differend ideas.

.
[/quote]

Thank you for trying to help me understand. To me, it seems that everyone can interpret Islam any way they want. Catholic cannot. We must follow God/Jesus/Holy Spirit teaching as laid out by God. That way we know the Truth. These teachings have been handed down in an unbroken line all the way back to Jesus.

We can have no misunderstandings and so those who do not follow Jesus teachings cannot be and should not be called Catholic.

[quote=Donna P]My point is that there is no united voice/teaching. Muslims can interpret their faith anyway they want. Catholic do not.

By the way, all violence is wrong. Jesus never promised that everyone in his Church would be perfect…only that His Church would prevail in spite of the imperfections and even atrocities of others. So far He has done what he has said.
[/quote]

Yes, Christians have been guilty, and are guilty, of violence. However, those who commit this violence are outside the confines of the faith. The conclusion that Christians may instigate violence without applying to the just war doctrine, does not follow the premises laid out by Christ. In fact, all men and women have inherent dignity, and to take their lives without just cause, would violate the laws of God.

It is precisely this denial of human dignity that is the cause of so much violence. Fundamentalist Muslims hold the idea that the infidel is “less human” and therefore they can be killed. These same fundamentalists, I’ve read, also deny women their full humanity (their testimony in court is half that of a mans, their inheritance is half that of a mans, etc.) I am no expert on Islam, and perhaps my Muslim brothers and sisters on this board could help me out, but judging by what I know of the life of Muhammed, and some verses from the Koran, violence isn’t outside the premises of the faith precisely because it denies some humans their dignity, (for instance when it comes to converting the “infidels.”)

Contarini,

To blame the Pope for the violence of Christians is severly misguided. What Donna P was getting at for Muslims, was that to have someone with the authority of th Pope would serve to denounce the violence of those who claimed to be doing something in the name of the faith. The Pope has the authority to say that something is done outside the confines of the faith. He can say that violence is not Christian, and those who are committing these crimes are not Christian. That was the point.

We have a very strong sense of brotherhood/sisterhood. This is what we believe in:

The Prophet(saw) said “Some of God’s Servants who are neither prophets nor martyrs shall have on the Day of Judgement a position so close to God that prophets and martyrs would love to have.” His companions said: “Messenger of God, will you please tell us who these people are.” He said: “They are people who love one another for God’s sake only. They have no relation of kinship or business interests with one another. By God, their faces are radiant with light, and they have light. They shall have no fear or sadness when other people are overtaken by fear and sadness.” [Related by Abu Dawud.]

and

On the authority of Abu Hurairah that the Prophet said:

“Whosoever removes a worldly grief from a believer, Allah will remove from him one of the griefs of the Day of Judgment. Whosoever alleviates [the lot of] a needy person, Allah will alleviate [his lot] in this world and the next. Whosoever shields a Muslim, Allah will shield him in this world and the next. Allah will aid a servant [of His] so long as the servant aids his brother…”

Related by Muslim

wa salam

Hello all. In Islam anyone who believes in the pillars of faith and doesn’t deny any of the main and basic beliefs is considered a Muslim. Even though that person maybe a sinner. We don’t have the right to call other people non-Muslims if they believe in Islam. Does being violent, or a drug dealer, or a prostitute etc take someone out of the fold of Christianity?

JP2Admirer said: “Fundamentalist Muslims hold the idea that the infidel is “less human” and therefore they can be killed.”

This is not true. A Muslim can’t kill anyone unjustly. We also don’t think of non-Muslims as less human. If you look at the life of the Prophet peace be upon him you will see many examples of him being very close to non-Muslims. The Prophet peace be upon him was asked to judge between a Muslim and a Jew, and he judged in favor of the Jew.

JP2Admirer said: "These same fundamentalists, I’ve read, also deny women their full humanity (their testimony in court is half that of a mans, their inheritance is half that of a mans, etc.) "

This is a long topic and I really don’t want to get into it. However I will explain them both briefly. In Islam being a witness is something serious and at times can be quite difficult. Sometimes a witness has to spend hours in a court room going through a long a very exhausting trial. Islam wishes not to put a woman in such a situation, so it made it harder for her to be a witness.

As for the inheritence. In Islam women must be looked after by their husbands, fathers, brothers etc. It is obligatory on them to spend on their female relatives. Therefore when a man gets double a woman in inheritance, it doesn’t really mean much because he has a family to look after, while the woman is one of those being looked after. It would not be fair if they both got the same amount of inheritance and he still had to spend on her, therefore giving her part of his share. If the woman is in need of any money, he must give her. In Islam a woman is always financially and materialistically secure, while the man is not. That is why he gets double the female.

I hope I have clarified these issues.

Emad :slight_smile:

J2PAdmirer wrote: “What Donna P was getting at for Muslims, was that to have someone with the authority of th Pope would serve to denounce the violence of those who claimed to be doing something in the name of the faith. The Pope has the authority to say that something is done outside the confines of the faith. He can say that violence is not Christian, and those who are committing these crimes are not Christian. That was the point.”

In Islam we do have this figure. It is the Prophet peace be upon him. No Muslim has the authority to make things permissible and prohibited as he/she wishes. It is the Quran and Hadith and nothing else. Therefore when someone does something all Muslims must speak out against it, and not just the leaders.

[quote=Donna P]That is sad. As Catholics, we are called to defend our faith…even unto death. And we are called to call those in error - even a priest - and bring them back into the Faith.

God guides our church and makes us ONE in faith with Him. We must turn our will to His Will. If we all choose to do what ever WE believe the faith to be - then there is no faith at all. Only a selfish godless shell.

Jesus was our shepherd. He gave us Peter as the first of many to guide His Church. While not all the appointed shepherds have been perfect, God has always made sure His Church is pure in her Teachings.
[/quote]

Donna,

We must remember that even though we as Catholics have a united faith behind the Pope, that we still encounter the same problem of dissence in the faith. Only a fraction of Catholics practice their faith regularly and believe in what the Church teaches. Many stay in the Church and call themselves “Catholics” only to undermine her and her teachings by spreading their false doctrines, while many more still are just complacent about their faith. There is little difference here, when it comes to some Catholic issue in the news, the press is always going to turn to a dissident Catholic theologian for what the Church teaches when they know he does not represent the Church faithfully, and yet they turn to him for that very reason - to undermine the Church. Hope this helps.

Catholicious

[quote=Emad]Hello all. In Islam anyone who believes in the pillars of faith and doesn’t deny any of the main and basic beliefs is considered a Muslim. Even though that person maybe a sinner. We don’t have the right to call other people non-Muslims if they believe in Islam. Does being violent, or a drug dealer, or a prostitute etc take someone out of the fold of Christianity?

JP2Admirer said: “Fundamentalist Muslims hold the idea that the infidel is “less human” and therefore they can be killed.”

This is not true. A Muslim can’t kill anyone unjustly. We also don’t think of non-Muslims as less human. If you look at the life of the Prophet peace be upon him you will see many examples of him being very close to non-Muslims. The Prophet peace be upon him was asked to judge between a Muslim and a Jew, and he judged in favor of the Jew.

JP2Admirer said: "These same fundamentalists, I’ve read, also deny women their full humanity (their testimony in court is half that of a mans, their inheritance is half that of a mans, etc.) "

This is a long topic and I really don’t want to get into it. However I will explain them both briefly. In Islam being a witness is something serious and at times can be quite difficult. Sometimes a witness has to spend hours in a court room going through a long a very exhausting trial. Islam wishes not to put a woman in such a situation, so it made it harder for her to be a witness.

As for the inheritence. In Islam women must be looked after by their husbands, fathers, brothers etc. It is obligatory on them to spend on their female relatives. Therefore when a man gets double a woman in inheritance, it doesn’t really mean much because he has a family to look after, while the woman is one of those being looked after. It would not be fair if they both got the same amount of inheritance and he still had to spend on her, therefore giving her part of his share. If the woman is in need of any money, he must give her. In Islam a woman is always financially and materialistically secure, while the man is not. That is why he gets double the female.

I hope I have clarified these issues.

Emad :slight_smile:
[/quote]

Thank you Emad! I don’t believe all Muslims think it is okay to kill someone unjustly, as you pointed out. That is why I modified it by using “fundamentalist.”

Also, I understand the chivalrous aspect of not wanting women to be put through such things as court, but I still believe to limit their testimony to half of a man’s is not chivalrous, but sexist. That idea to me suggests they have less dignity, and in many Muslim countries, that is exactly the result. Anyway, this is a bit off the topic of this thread, so maybe I’ll start it as a new thread.

[quote=Donna P]Jesus was our shepherd. He gave us Peter as the first of many to guide His Church. While not all the appointed shepherds have been perfect, God has always made sure His Church is pure in her Teachings.
[/quote]

Donna,

I know what you mean, but for the sake of clarification for our Muslim friends, we as Catholics do not believe Peter or any other Pope was perfect or “impeccable” (I think you meant “good role model” here). But I am sure we agree that the Popes are “infallible” (free from teaching error by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, “God”) in regards to faith and morals, those truths binding on the faithful. Peace.

Catholicious

[quote=fatuma]A Muslim can not ever denounce another Muslim as a non-believer. EVER. Because only they and God know what is in their hearts. The only way you can denounce someone is if they break an article of faith, like one of the five pillars Islam or one of the six pillars of faith.

wa salam
[/quote]

[quote=DonnaP]Wow…I am saddened by this. What you say is that…

  1. Even if another Muslim does something wrong - you will never denounce him.
    [/quote]

DonnaP and fatuma,

It sounds like what fatuma is saying is the same as what Jesus taught us in the Gospels:

Matthew 7:1 (KJV)
Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Luke 6:37 (KJV)
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Am I wrong, I think we share something in common here, God does the judging, we don’t?

Peace,
Catholicious

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