A few months, I was reading on this site about muhammad being beaten by Gabriel. Now I cannot find it. Did I dream it, lol? :shrug:
That is totally true, read Robert Spencer’s book on Mohammed. Supposedly, the angel Gabriel choked Mohammed as well and Mohammed didn’t believe at first.
Not beaten, lol, but pressed like in tight embraced. You can find that in their Hadith. It was when Gabriel first commanded Mohammad to recite the revelations. Mohammad couldn’t as he was illiterate and so Gabriel pressed him very hard to sort of forcing him to do so.
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3:
"…The Prophet added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, ‘I do not know how to read.’ Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, ‘I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?’ Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, …
If such an event happened, surely it wasn’t Gabriel, right?
Obviously it was not consistent with what a holy angel would do. As messenger of God, it would give peace to the intended recipient or that the message would often problem solving.
I am not trying to bash Islam but Mohammad was indeed distraught after this incident. He went on to seek counsel from a gnostic Christian, Warakah, who advised him that it was Allah who sent the ‘angel’ (paraphrase). And so began Islam.
btw, the pressing by Gabriel was so forceful that Mohammad was short of breathe and he couldn’t stand it. Again from a Christian perspective, this is an obvious sign of oppression and near possession which is inconsistent with an action of an angel.
I wouldn’t see why not. God and his angels do as they please. His ways are higher than ours. And John Smith was supposedly talked to by Peter, James, and John. They appear to who they want to. “I have sheep in other folds.” With the limited info us Catholics are given to do what our calling is. That doesn’t mean everyone else is lying. I guess when in doubt we’re right and that makes everyone else wrong automatically. God is not limited by the CCC.
The good angels work for the Kingdom of God. The fallen angels deceive and divide.
Saints and angels do not do what they want to do. They gladly do what the Lord commands them to do, and for His greater glory.
Saints and good angels do not appear to people and divide the Lord’s Kingdom with deception.
What do you mean “deceive and divide the Lord’s Kingdom” ? Who has suggested that this Gabriel account is/was doing that? BTW I am not Muslim. THis is the first I’ve heard of this story. People are different and need to be taught in the way they understand things. “GIve the milk to the babes” we are taught. And we are very much the babes. The “fallen Angels” as they’ve been come to be know by us was led by Samyaza is has fallen and is no longer an Angel. The Lucifer story was originally a little different. The bible says nothing about Lucifer except the insertion in the writing about the King of Babylon. He was repremaded but is still an angel. Just not in charge. The Samyaza and Lucifer story have been confused together. I don’t give fallen angels that much power to be very deceptive.
God does what he wants? That is an Islamic view of God not the Catholic or Christian one.
Angels don’t go around doing what they want at their own whims. They are obedient to God and do His will and pressing someone into belief or forcing them is not how God work’s.
First this is a very interesting thread and thank you and all for the discussion. Islamic? I don’t know. You are going by what you’ve been taught. And that’s fine. There are many angels. Many different kinds all spirits of the Sun like we are spirits of the Earth. There are angels that work with man as you and most are familiar with. Some don’t. Some might not even like man and finds humans irritating. Who knows in “the prophet’s” case how God was testing him and I guess gabriel taught him about prayer later too. Remember in our scriptures how there was a wrestling match and the angel laimed? Or should I say the Jewish scriptures. You might check out sufism. It predates Islam but is informative. I’d say God knew just how to get through to muhammad and knew what he was doing. I don’t know but I’m not second guessing God.
Hope that’s informative. But whatever you believe or know. Love conquors all God will not put or allow anymore on us than we can bear.
Sometimes I think why GOD allowed that to happen in the first place!, many different religions on this earth with billions of followers, each one claims the true path.
The Sacred Scripture warns us that the devil can appear as an angel of light. Obviously many starters of religions did not discern that the messenger was not from the Lord.
We are given free reign, and basically we are tested to find the true path.
What caused me to respond to your post was when you mentioned “John Smith was supposedly talked to by Peter, James and John.” I was trying to explain that God does not send “messengers” to start new religions.
They can say they saw the Lord and was told to teach thus and so, and it was not the Lord at all.
With regard to the angelic spirits, the good ones and the fallen ones, the Catholic Church authoritatively teaches about them. The bible gives many clues about angels, yet you say the bible says nothing. Our Lord said “I saw Satan fall like lightning…” And in the book of Revelation we hear about the battle in Heaven (a battle of wills) where 1/3 of the angels rebelled and fell with Lucifer their leader.
Sister in Christ, billions have failed that test, that means it’s a very hard test for humans to understand and pass.
I cannot imagine how it would look on the judgment day when everyone will through the blame on the other…
I don’t know anyone that started a religion that people say heads a religion. Such as Jesus, Buddha, Smith or whoever. Religion is more of a political and power game for control. And the church says the devil can appear as an angel of light. Very convenient. As far as evil spirits go. Our thoughts are what attracts things like evil spirits. Sickness or meditative states of mind that open us up. One of my demons, she gave me or I received her name from a dream that was a nightmare. And then the dream became good God was rescuing me. I know one of my angels has three daughters and this was not a evil spirit deceiving that time.
Satan or “Shatan” is now linked with Lucifer in scriptures yes. I am not sure of the origin of Satan but we read in the scriptures that “the children of Israel were whoring after false gods.” They were mixing theologies with other cultures. It’s a lot to sort out.
In short my point is this. I myself anyway would not put limitations on God by understanding given to the masses. I put my faith in God and step off the safe mountain and believe he will show me the truth directly. And I’ve been shown things. Religions are started by men who use men like I’ve mentioned as a figure (Jesus too). And I’ve looked at about all religions. Also I did not think of John’s revelation so I may stand corrected about Lucifer being mentioned once. Evil spirits are spirits of Saturn. That minister that sits round the throne. A completely different wave of evolution.
Thanks everyone for the responses! I really appreciate it.
There is such a thing called revealed truth. I hear people tell me from time to time that all religion is man made. This may be true for most religions but not all. I realize that may sound very convenient but it doesn’t change the fact God revealed himself to Abraham, Moses, and of Course Jesus revealed himself to his disciples and Paul, and others in the Gospels. To be Catholic one must believe this; otherwise Christianity just becomes a label and unimportant.
The way you stated your previous post made me think your not quite convinced of Catholic Churches claims. This isn't a problem except that your faith says your catholic.