Muhammad's whitnesses...

If Muhammad was **so right **when he received the Quran why didn’t he have any whitenesses ; not one.
On the other hand Jesus did and he had thousands over his lifetime?
Wouldn’t that make Muhammad not credible ?

Does this not make a difference to the Muslims here?

Well Prophet Muhammad pbuh before he recieved revelation from Allah by Angel Jibreel. Prophet Muhammad is known among his people the truthful and people give this laqab of truthful. Please anyone translate the meaning in english of laqab. If i found 99 names of Prophet Muhammad pbuh I will post it in my next thread.

Of course he had witnesses.

Please name them particularly if any saw the spirit that gave the revelations.

I have named 7 or 8 on this forum already–the only ones whose names come to mind at the moment are 'Umar and Umm Salamah.

But she didn’t even ask for witnesses to the revelation, more like witnesses that he even existed. Because she said Jesus had witnesses… and nobody I know thinks that Jesus received the Qur’an soo…

people witnessed Jesus… people witnessed Muhammad

:shrug:

I could not find anything saying they witnessed the spirit.

But she didn’t even ask for witnesses to the revelation, more like witnesses that he even existed. Because she said Jesus had witnesses… and nobody I know thinks that Jesus received the Qur’an soo…

I think few doubt the existance of Mohammed, but many doubt who spoke to him so the OP seems at least obvious to me.

people witnessed Jesus… people witnessed Muhammad

:shrug:

Islam places great emphasis on the reliability/validity of witness with regard to the hadith to support Islamic tradition and thus support for the Quran. That reliability are from 7th century names that mean little to the non-Arab/Muslim but more than that they have no other impact than their place in Islamic history.

The Gospel witness is dismissed by Muslims because they don’t carry the same level of specific names like the hadith do because even Catholics will not dispute the specific Evangelists may not have penned the words themselves but may have relied on scribes to do so, much like Mohammed did in getting the Qur’an recorded. Both are a form of dictation so I see little value in that argument on both sides.

My queston then is why would you accept as more valid a story related by Umm Salamah transcribed by some scribe years after Mohammed and not accept as equally valid the Gospels? Once Umm Salamah died her ‘truth’ was as reliable as the unknown scribe that wrote it down.

The difference with the Gospels and all of the NT compared to the Qur’an is that it is a witness in itself during the life of the Evangilists which could be refuted and disproved if it were false. People could have written Peter did not heal and cure others as claimed in Acts, just as people could have written accounts that disprove the life of Jesus as recorded in the Gospels. I know of no 1st century documents from either the Jews or Romans to dispute the Gospels. Do you?

During the life of Mohammed- not withstandind the later claims of miracles of splitting the moon and bringing water from a rock as examples, everything in the Qur’an says he brought no miracles to dispute in his lifetime. His claims of the Night Journey just like the spirit who revealed things to him were not witnessed by others. How do you see a mans dream to support it? Even if I were to accept some obscure claim of witness to Mohammeds miracle or spirit, it is not nearly as significant as the many claims in the Gospels of feeding thousands with a few fish or the healing of many in the Temple.

I don’t see how you could support the Qur’an over the Gospels particularly becasue they disagree.

No when the Quran was revealed by an angel to Muhammad he had no witnesses, and no one can see that angel except him:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3:
"…The Prophet added, “The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, ‘I do not know how to read.’ Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, ‘I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?’ Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous.” (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah’s Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, “Cover me! Cover me!” They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, “I fear that something may happen to me.” Khadija replied, "Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you. You keep good relations with your Kith and kin, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guests generously and assist the deserving calamity-afflicted ones…"
(E)
(A)

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 74, Number 266:
"Narrated 'Aisha:
Allah’s Apostle said, “O 'Aisha! This is Gabriel sending his greetings to you.” I said, “Peace, and Allah’s Mercy be on him (Gabriel). You see what we do not see.” (She was addressing Allah’s Apostle).
"
(E)
(A)

Muhammad received everything from angel Gabriel, Muslims say. Who saw Gabriel beside Muhammad? no one. There are traditions stating that 2 people saw Gabriel, but it was Muhammad who told them it was Gabriel…Um Salamah, for instance, believed it was one of Muhammad’s companions. So it all boils down to “Muhammad said so”.

Muhammad, like Allah, has 99 names?

If the Koran came to Muhammed by the way of an Angel, how can you say it is the verbatum word of God?

Allah recited to Gabriel who recited to Muhammad.

I was pointing out that there is no proof that Gabriel was Gabriel. I doubt Muhammed asked for two forms of ID.

Well Prophet Muhammad pbuh before he recieved revelation from Allah by Angel Jibreel. Prophet Muhammad is known among his people the truthful and people give this laqab of truthful.

**Mahomet (pblt) was decieved by an inferior demon pretending to be the Angel Gabriel. Every word in the Coran is a lie including “a,” “an,” and “the.”

I confess there is NO GOD but Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and Jesus is God Incarnate risen from the dead. **

Who are the whitenesses that witnessed his “miracle”?

Amy mentioned the names of those who witnessed the “angel”, if that’s what you mean. Umar and Um Salamah. Um Salamah believed it was Muhammad’s companion named Dihya, but Muhammad said no it was angel Gabriel. Ummar said a man visited Muhammad and talked with him about religion, and after the man left, Muhammad told Umar it was angel Gabriel. In both accounts, it was Muhammad who said it was an angel.
As to miracles performed by Muhammad, there are none. Muhammad says the Quran is the sole miracle…you find some in the hadith, but they obviously were additions by zealous Muslims to put Muhammad on the same level with Biblical prophets but the Quran is clear, Muhammad is no miracle performer but just a warner.

More than 2 people. Umm Salamah is one, but there was another occasion where at least 7 Companions witnessed the Angel. You’re right, they only knew his identity because Muhammad told them. Which is to be expected–how else would they know?

He appeared as a man, but was not someone that any of them recognized, he appeared wearing perfectly white clothes and clean black hair, no signs of travel on him, despite the fact they lived in the desert and he wasn’t a person from Medina. His behavior as well was noted, the way he put his hands on the thighs of the Prophet, an intimate way of sitting that none of the Companions would have dared. This is all suggestive of the character being a teacher to Muhammad, as was the question and answer dialog which took place between them.

So there is a lot more than just Muhammad told them.

Moreover, there were witnesses to the revelation itself–people would describe how Muhammad would get very heavy, for example, when he was receiving revelation, which one person noticed from the animal he was riding on, and another person whose leg was under the thigh Muhammad during revelation and felt it being crushed for that time.

So it is right to say that “Muhammad said” this was the Angel; etc?
After the fact and the angel never appeared to these whitenesses?

Hi

If you kindly reflect for a moment, you will realize that when GodAllahYHWH is a witeness; then no witnesses are required naturally. Moses had conversation with GodAllahYHWH on the mountain; that required no witnessing. If one does not believe in GodAllahYHWH; then who would one believe in.

Thanks

Moses produced the Law which is known to almost every human on the planet, and requires no witness except our respectfull acknowledgement of it’s source which is God. The Jews have kept Gods word free from error since Moses himself, and though you may disagree with any interpretation please do not insult its honored 3500 year history as being exactly what it has always said it is.

The fruit of Moses is the mark of Abraham being Gods Law and the basis of most peoples morality today if not ever fully practiced it is often claimed.

Jesus lived and fulfilled the Law by His death, Rising again in 3 days to usher in Truth among men. The Church is Christs witness on Earth.

The fruit of Jesus is religious Orders like Mother Teresa’s Missionary of Charity, and Jesuits, and greatly influence the Red Cross, and Operation Smile medical missions to name a few.

What is the fruit of Mohammed? What is witness to him today?

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