Muhammed or...


#1

Jesus. Which one?

I no that Jesus is God and a better choice. But this is for people who do not know the truth. That Jesus is God!

Muhammed and Jesus had different ways of teaching their religion. Jesus by healing and Muhammed by force. Not that I have any dislike of Islam. But with all the issue on the Papal speech I thought I might bring this up.

In many radical Muslim minds, it seems more like Muhammed or death. This does not include the good Muslims.

I do believe the Pope has made a good and honest speech. God never said that we should attack people to make them believe. He said we should shine like lights so that people may glorify Him in heaven.

This thread is a compare and contrast of the teaching of Muhammed and Jesus.


#2

Anybody?


#3

I honestly do think we’re slamming Muslims a bit too much lately. Mind you, there’s also no doubt that many Muslims are bringing this on to themselves too-- so my sympathies only go so far.

As far as penetrating the Arab nations with the Gospel, I don’t think there are any easy answers.

I’ll come back to this thread tommorow night. I’ve a few thoughts on this matter-- and I think it goes without saying that Jesus is superior to Muhammad. And if this is considered politically incorrect, then so be it.

I’ll take being spiritually correct over being *politically correct *anyday. And Christ is so spiritually correct, even Muslims understand that he will return to make things right again-- albeit, probably not in the way they think it will happen.


#4

Jesus said to love your enemy.

Muhammed said to kill the infidel.

How do you bridge a gap between those to opposites. For the jihadist protesting in the street, the best outcome is the death of all non-believers. For the Christian in the pew, the best outcome is the conversion of all non-believer that they might have eternal life.

Why are Muslims just now getting around to protesting when this speech by the Pope was made four days ago?


#5

[quote=“Mr. Ex Nihilo”]I honestly do think we’re slamming Muslims a bit too much lately. Mind you, there’s also no doubt that many Muslims are bringing this on to themselves too-- so my sympathies only go so far.
[/quote]

Muslims are people and need to be judged individually.

The religion of Islam, however, is intolerable and there is no question that it deserves to be “slammed”.

Please keep this distinction in mind.


#6

No. Actually, I won’t keep this distinction in mind thank you– and I would advise you to not correct me on things that you apparently do not know much about.

The religion of Islam is not an intolerable religion and there are many ways in which is should be applauded insofar as it compliments Catholic teachings.

Quite frankly, the slamming that I see going on here does not mesh easilly with Christian love. It is inexcusable.

People are taking pot shots at Islam (the religion along with its people) without even taking a serious look at the similarities between our Catholic faith and their Arabic monotheistic religion of the so-called ‘Prophet’.

So for example, although Islam does not regard Jesus as the Son of God, not even his death and resurrection, Islam does nonetheless agree with Catholicism insofar as they believe that he returned to heaven and is there and will descend at the appointed time, end all wars, and bring peace to the world.

This is a strong point of common agreement within which we can have a more serious discussion with Islam and point them back toward the true faith of Christ as God in willing submission to the Father’s will.

In other words, instead of bashing Islam over the head with insults – which is, in the Spirit of truth, verbally no different than their radicals’ attrocious violent behavior towards ‘infidels’ – we should be searching out for common grounds within which we can explain their religion to them and point them toward the true gospel of Christ.

capiche?


#7

I do not agree that Islam in itself needs to be slammed but rather that the radicals who go killing people need to repent. There is not one among us who did not deserve death, but instead Jesus gave life.
I did not plan to slam Islam by posting this thread an I’m sorry if it seemed this way, but I here to learn about Islam and what Muhammed taught and why Muslims believe Muhammed to be greater than Jesus.
Islam is not evil! Their are good and kind Muslims but there are bad ones like any other religion. It is unfortunate how they tend to be more radical, though.


#8

I understand the desire for ecumenism, but how do you reach even tolerance when a conversation might go like this.

Catholic: How can we get along?
Muslim: Simple, you die.
Catholic: I don’t want to die. I want to live in peace with you.
Muslim: Peace for me is you die, oh and your wife, too.
Catholic: What if I just turn the other cheek?
Muslim: Then I will just shoot you in the back. You must die.
Catholic: Can you put off you killing me until we can think this through.
Muslim: Nothing left to think about, you need to die, today.
Catholic: We’re all God’s children.
Muslim: God wills you to die for not believing in Islam. It’s really not my fault.
Catholic: What if we just agree to leave each other alone?
Muslim: Your very existence offends me and God. You need to die.
Catholic: Can’t you see we agree on a lot of things in our faiths?
Muslim: Yes, but you don’t believe in Islam so you must die. It’s not my fault you are infidel.
Catholic: I thought yours was a religion of peace.
Muslim: It is. But we can have no peace while you are alive.
Catholic: What if I kill you first.
Muslim: Then I will go to Heaven and you wil go to Hell.
Catholic: And if you kill me first?
Muslim: Then I will go to Heaven and you will go to Hell.
Catholic: So there can be no compromise.
Muslim: Sorry, it’s God’s will. You seem like a nice fellow. I won’t enjoy killing you, but we are in a holy war and me getting to Heaven is important.
Catholic: What if I want to go to Heaven.
Muslim: Convert to Islam and I will let you live.

So, how do we reach out to this fellow? He doesn’t want to listen to reason as he is fully convinced of his position and that it is willed by God. Holding hands and singing Kumbaya isn’t going to work.

The reaction to the Pope’s speech and the way the Muslims have ginned up the hostility shines a huge spotlight on the reality that is Islam. They don’t want to be left alone. They are on the offensive.


#9

I just saw a post on the net where fanatic Muslims are calling Jesus “monkey.” And Christians worship a monkey hanging on the cross. What kind of respect to Christ is that? They all say they have a high regard for Jesus, but they follow none of his teachings. I think it’s a bunch of BS.


#10

First of all, you select your target more carefully.

If the conversation you presented is indicative of their mentality, then it is very clear that this person is not open to the Spirit and no ecumenical dialogue could possibly ensue.

Second of all, you have to realize that not all Muslims would engage an ecumenical dialogue in the way you’ve presented-- and I think that this is something on our side that we have to work at understanding better.

Among the North African nations, Tunisia is the most secular in its approach to religion-- and yet I never hear anything about them in the news. More often than not, we see things from the perspective of Libya for example, a largely Muslim nation which has attempted to configure itself with 8th century Koranic law.

The example dialogue you’ve given is a gross misrepresentation of Islam here in the West that, quite frankly, feeds off of the most extreme examples of violence that Islam has perpetuated in the name of Allah.

The Koran does criticize Christians in some ways, but even its complaints are mild. Muhammad finds faults with Christians for our tendency to disagree among ourselves. The Koran also views the emrging Christian practice of monasticism with suspicion as well.

However, by the standards of religious rhetoric (especially those of the era), the Koran’s attitude toward Christians (and also Jewish people) is remarkably generous.

In contrast to this, however, Muhammad’s feircest religious fight was with the grossly idolatrous Arab culture that surrounded him. Much like Joshua and the Israelites entering into the promised land, the ‘prophet’ most especially attacked the militant paganism of its leaders. And, in this context, he actually looked to the other two ‘biblical religions’ with a mixture of alliance and cobelligerance in his struggle against ido-worshipping superstition.

[quote=StCsDavid]So, how do we reach out to this fellow?
[/quote]

Obviously not with clear reason. In this instance this fellows only hope to be reached is through our actions.

In other words, do not resist this person.

If he strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if he wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. Or if he forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.

Regardless of what they do, no matter how hard it might seem, we must not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath.

I know it’s easier said than done, but it is nonetheless written:

“It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord.

So, on the contrary, as far as our human actions are concerned…

If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.

We must not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

[quote=StCsDavid]He doesn’t want to listen to reason as he is fully convinced of his position and that it is willed by God. Holding hands and singing Kumbaya isn’t going to work.
[/quote]

But I’m not talking about holding hands and singing Kumbaya. I’m talking about being willing to lay down one’s life for the sake of the Gospel so that by one’s death you reach the person after they’ve murdered you.

Sadly, unless some miraculous gifts of the Spirit brings about a remarkable transformation in their soul, it seems as though this is the only way these extremists can be reached.

Tertullian might have been wrong on some things. But he got it completely correct when he said the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church.

[quote=StCsDavid]The reaction to the Pope’s speech and the way the Muslims have ginned up the hostility shines a huge spotlight on the reality that is Islam. They don’t want to be left alone. They are on the offensive.
[/quote]

Well, first of all, I don’t think the Pope has to apologize for anything. But, at the same time, it is clear that those who have reacted against the Pope’s words with such violence are clearly unstable to begin with.

I’ll just stress that their reaction to the Pope’s words does not speak for all of Islam.


#11

I suspect that the true BS here is trying to lump all Muslims with these fanatics who so easilly disregard their own ‘prophet’ this way.

We as Catholics know that Jesus is not merely a prophet-- he is the Son of God. And to teach otherwise is clearly a heretical teaching.

Islam, taken within its own Koranic context, understands that Jesus is not a monkey-- and those Muslims who make these kinds of proclamations don’t even understand their own faith.

Again, Muslims like these fanatics do not speak for all of Islam no more that White Supremacists speak for Christianity.


#12

Would you drink a glass of milk if it had even one drop of poison? In the same way, I will not defend false doctrines because they have become mixed with some truths. By the way this is one of the devil’s favorite strategies.


#13

To be fair, I didn’t actually think you were slamming Islam. I thought your post was well thought out. However, I have been seeing a lot of slamming in other threads lately.

I need to make it clear that there actually are many things within Islam that, as a Catholic, I do not agree with at all. I’ll even go one step further any quite bluntly state that there are murderous elements within the Islamic faith which powerfully separates it from our Catholic faith.

When I look to the fundamentalist Arabic nations, I can clearly see that the Iblis has a deadly strangle-hold on these nations which only Christ himself can break. This kind of geo-political monotheistic religion is based in part upon a theocratic delusionary wish that has been long forgotten within most parts of the western world.

Taken in context, along with aspects of liberation theology and atheistic communism for example, the movement has a great potential to ultimately lead its adherants toward a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. In fact, as the Catechism clearly teaches, the deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history this ‘messianic hope’ which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment.

The Catholic Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come (often under the name of millenarianism). But she has especially rejected the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism-- which is basically what Islam amounts to whenever it listens to the mortal man Muhammad over the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I don’t think I can make this any clearer.

The only thing that I’m trying to get across is that not all Muslims act in the way we see the ‘reactionaries’ reacting. And the radicals within Islam do not speak for all Muslims worldwide. And we must not seek revenge when confronted by these radicals within the Islamic faith.


#14

Well excuse me but I am not a Muslim. And I think I’ve made this part clear.

Furthermore, if this is one of the devil’s favorite strategies, then how exactly are we supposed to reach the Muslim world with the gospel?

My apologies exoflare, but your post doesn’t really seem to make much sense.

Are you saying that we should let them be damned and effectively write off the Arab nations?

St. Francis never felt this way. I don’t either.

And I’m fairly sure that God is very concerned about the peoples of Arabic nations too.


#15

#16

OK


#17

When Muslim leaders say things we disagree with do burn mosques? They burned churches because of what the Pope said.
When someone draws an unflattering cartoon of the pope do Christians riot and kill people? Moslems did.
When Moslims live in predominately Christian countries do we add a special tax to them, deny them military service or the right to hold public office, make them get permits not required by churches to build or repair a mosque? They do.
When they have a man made or natural disaster do we rejoice in the streets? They did on 9/11.
There may be good Muslims but there religion is one that teaches hate, violence and oppression. I have no use for their religion, none what so ever.


#18

You may not have been claming that I was a Muslim. But you seemed to be indicating that I was using the adversary’s methods when defending Islam-- essentially claming that I was poisoning the waters when defending them so to speak.

If you didn’t mean this, it certainly seemed that way with your next post…

[quote=exoflare]Not by mixing truth with falsehood, that’s for sure!
[/quote]

For the record, I’m not mixing truth with falsehood.

I’m trying to take a clear and concise look at the claims presented by Islam and their detractors in order to discern truth from falsehood.

To the extent that Islam actually theologically keeps in-line with Catholic teachings, I will applaud them.

To the extent that Islam actually theologically separates itself with Catholic teachings, I will correct them.

But the same holds true, to the extent that false claims are made against them, for Islam’s detractors too.

[quote=exoflare]What are you talking about?
[/quote]

This is what I’m talking about. And you can find more information about his dialogues here.


#19

Then why are we as Catholics deeply engaged with Islam in authentic ecumenical dialogue?

You may have no use for their religion. None what so ever as you say. But apparently the leaders within our Church do see the need to speak with them.

And to the extent that Islam agrees with Catholicism, we most certainly do have a friend in the Lord through them. They, like us, are a common defender of life when it comes to standing up against the abominable pro-death supporters in the UN family planning for example.

And yes, I’ll go step by step if you like through Islam to show you where we agree and disagree-- and to what extent they can actually help us to bring about God’s authentic will in this world.

But I don’t think you’re really prepared to accept what I have to offer in regards to Catholic-Muslim dialogue. It seems to me that your mind is already made up.


#20

There’s a bit of pragmatism that goes on. There’s a billion of them…and a billion of us. I believe part of it falls into the category of keeping your friends close and your enemies closer. The fact that they turned so sour so quickly over the Pope’s statements shows that their idea of authentic ecumenical dialogue doesn’t hold much weight.

Hey, there are good Muslims and bad ones just as there are good Catholics and bad ones. When the bad Catholics surface, (i.e. the pedophile priests) the good Catholics stand up in outrage. They work to fix the problem. That doesn’t happen with Islam. I’ve yet to see a prominant, conservative Islamic leader ever condemn a terrorist attack that was made in the name of Islam.

I’m sure ecumenism with Islam looks wonderful on paper, and in theory we likely do have a lot in common as much of thier faith is based on Judaism and Christianity, but applied to the reality that is their faith put into practice, it might make some progress in America which seems to have the least violent sects, and maybe Tunisia, but the rest of the Islamic world seems convinced that non-belivers are better off dead.

Case in point, they murdered a nun in Somalia, today, who worked to help Muslims. Why? Because their leaders took the Pope’s statements way out of context for their own gain and incited the emotions of the faithful.


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