Murdering Women For “Honor”

By Jamie Glazov


June 10, 2005

Today we are witnessing the globalization of honor killing, as the West has become the perpetual scene of immigrant Arab women being murdered by their immigrant families. A distinguished panel joins us today to discuss what causes this violence against women, how it is directly connected to the terror war, and why the Western Left is so deafeningly silent about a mass crime that violates one of its supposed sacred values. Our guests today:

Seyran Ates, a lawyer for family and criminal law and a women’s rights activist in Germany. She has written two books, Wo Gehören Wir Hin? (Where Do We Belong?) and Große Reise ins Feuer, (Big Travel to Fire), both of which deal with her life and the ingredients of the typical Turkish girl’s and women’s life as an immigrant in Germany.

Dr. Gudrun Eussner, an economic and social expert in international development programmes with long-term experience in the Middle East;

Dr. Nancy Kobrin, affiliated professor to the University of Haifa, Arabist, psychoanalyst and author of the upcoming book, The Sheikh’s New Clothes: Islamic Suicide Terror and What It’s Really All About;

and

Dr. Hans-Peter Raddatz, a scholar of Islamic Studies and author of two books on the subject of women in Islam, Allahs Schleier - die Frau im Kampf der Kulturen (Allah’s Veil - Women in the Clash of Civilization) and Allahs Frauen - Djihad zwischen Demokratie und Scharia (Allah’s Women - Jihad Between Democracy and Sharia);

FP: Dr. Gudrun Eussner, Dr. Nancy Kobrin, Dr. Hans-Peter Raddatz and Seyran Ates, welcome to Frontpage Symposium.

Hatin Surucu is Berlin’s latest victim of “honor” killing. We would like to dedicate this symposium to her memory. Let’s take a moment of silence to think about Hatin and all the persecuted women that she represents under the tyrannical structures of gender apartheid.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Media/Homepage/honorkilling2.jpg
(moment of silence)

Dr. Raddatz, let me begin with you.

Let’s start with a little quick overview of this tragic and frightening phenomenon. Why are the occurrence of honor killings rising in Europe and in the rest of the West and from what dark sources does this terrible misogynist crime stem?

Raddatz: In the first two volumes of the new UN-sponsored ‘Encyclopaedia of Women in Islamic Cultures’ (EWIC) mostly female authors contribute to the subject of power and violence executed by men over and against women. Some of them arrive at very interesting results. They show that over the centuries the jurists and theologians of Islam have widened the rules of the Qur’an and Islamic tradition into an unlimited licence, some sort of blank cheque, for men to handle women as they deem appropriate. Legally, women appear as beings between personal subjects and material objects. Therefore, they are at the disposal of their husbands who are entitled to the unlimited usage of their bodies. Marriage is a contract - as literally expressed in some countries - “to use the sexual organ” for reproduction and personal pleasure. The human rights of sexual self-determination and choice of husband are widely unknown and rare exceptions in practical life.

So the uniting band of all Islamic cultures is simultaneously the top human right in Islam. It is male and comprises the authority of husbands as well as fathers and brothers who guard what they call the “chastity” of their daughters and sisters. Veiling and domestic arrest secure the so-called “honor” which then equals the human right to female obedience, unlimited readiness for sexual intercourse and punishment in case of disobedience. For the Western mind this is seen as violent abuse, but in Muslim law it forms one of the central regulations securing not only the “honor” but the Islamic state as such. This leads to the first question of why violence and “honor killings” are currently increasing to an alarming extent, not only in the West but also and particularly in the Islamic region. . . .


Full article

yes I am interested as to why this is being ignored:nope:

i don’t know whether this is real ignorance or you enjoy telling lies.

Muslims follow the Quran and Sunnah. That’s it. we use something called ittihad ( this is the knowledge someone gets when the for themselves read the Quran and sunnah for themselves and uses the knowledge of thoes who know more than them to know if something is right or wrong).

Haven saidthat, you seem to be under the influence that arab= muslim. the isalmic ummah( this is the word for nation and mother since women are seen as the builders of nations in islam). is composed of 10-15% arab, the large majority i belive well over 50% are in africa and the rest are in asia( china, malayasia, indonesia, philliopines( don’t have time to spell check)).

Now haven said that, there is not a single cahpter, single verse, or single letter in the Quran or sunnah that supports the killings of daughters. infacnt there is a special place in hell for fathers who kill their daughter due to honor and a special " trail" on the day of judgment where the daughter will ask her father for what crime she has been killed for. this is in the Quran. it’s talking about female infanticide and how the arabs used to bury them alive in graves for fear that they will bring dishonor to the family.

Haven said that, when you hear of honor killings you better bring more than arab people killing their daughters beacuse they are not the whole of the islamic world.

Haven said that sex out side of marriage is a sin, the punishment is death for both men and women. to proove a case of premarital sex or adultry, you will need 4 very respected members of society who are known for their goodness to witness actual physical
penetration of you what in the you know where. pregancy is not proof and if you can’t fine 4 witnesses and the persons doesn’t confuse, you have no case.

Haven said that, how many times do i have to tell people

islam is not what muslims do
islam iis what muslims should

[quote=fatuma]i don’t know whether this is real ignorance or you enjoy telling lies.
[/quote]

Thanks for the insult. It sure helps in pointing out the falsehoods in the article. :rolleyes:

[quote=fatuma]Muslims follow the Quran and Sunnah. That’s it.
[/quote]

Are you saying that mullahs, imams, ayatollahs, etc. play no role??

[quote=fatuma]Haven saidthat, you seem to be under the influence that arab= muslim.
[/quote]

Can you point to anything to support your sweeping assertion?

[quote=fatuma]Haven said that, when you hear of honor killings you better bring more than arab people killing their daughters beacuse they are not the whole of the islamic world.
[/quote]

So, are you denying that non-Arab muslims use the Qu’ran to justify honor killings?

[quote=fatuma]Haven said that sex out side of marriage is a sin, the punishment is death for both men and women. to proove a case of premarital sex or adultry, you will need 4 very respected members of society who are known for their goodness to witness actual physical penetration of you what in the you know where. pregancy is not proof and if you can’t fine 4 witnesses and the persons doesn’t confuse, you have no case.
[/quote]

So, if this “death penalty” is not an honor killing, what do you call it?

[quote=fatuma]islam is not what muslims do
islam iis what muslims should
[/quote]

So how should one respond to assertions by Islamic religious leaders that muslims should kill infidels, Jews, Americans, civilians, ad naseam, based on their reading of the Qu’ran? How can I know that your interpretation of Islam is better than their interpretation of Islam?

Frankly, if I have to choose between an anonymous muslim’s unsupported assertions or the statement of a recognized " scholar of Islamic Studies," I’d have to choose the later.

[quote=stumbler]Thanks for the insult. It sure helps in pointing out the falsehoods in the article. :rolleyes:

Are you saying that mullahs, imams, ayatollahs, etc. play no role??

Can you point to anything to support your sweeping assertion?

So, are you denying that non-Arab muslims use the Qu’ran to justify honor killings?

So, if this “death penalty” is not an honor killing, what do you call it?

So how should one respond to assertions by Islamic religious leaders that muslims should kill infidels, Jews, Americans, civilians, ad naseam, based on their reading of the Qu’ran? How can I know that your interpretation of Islam is better than their interpretation of Islam?

Frankly, if I have to choose between an anonymous muslim’s unsupported assertions or the statement of a recognized " scholar of Islamic Studies," I’d have to choose the later.
[/quote]

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: AMEN I SAY!:clapping:

Honor killing is outright murder in Islam. It is not permissible for a person to kill anyone out of some notion of “honor.” It is by no means exclusive to Muslims and “Islamic countries,” and it violates Islamic law. Racism, sexism, and all forms of bigotry or prejudice are also prohibited in Islam.

Whoever will insist that HK is a part of Islam’s teachings, then the burden of proof is upon him/her. Give us authentic evidence from the Qur’an and Sunnah to prove the allegation.

deen

  1. mullahs, imams, ayatollahs are what shaii believe( they up about 12-10% of the muslim ummah,) sunni who make up well over 80% believe in following your own logic by following the Quran and sunnah.

  2. I am not paranoid, these are the words that go together thanks to ignorance honor killings=middle-east=islam

  3. there is no islamic country in the owrld, there is no one leader that speaks for muslims and thanks to so many problems that have arise from geo-political conflicts that had nothing to do with religion, islam is starting to look like a every man for himself kind of game at the moment.

  4. neo-nazis also believe themselves to be right when all they do is go to hate sites. Why don’t you try diversifying your knowledge pool in order to have a blanace view; this is why I don’t know if you really come from lack of knowdledge or if you just don’t care what any body says and that you will hold on to these beliefs dispite evidence to the contrary

  5. I see that you have made the choice to ignore this:
    Now haven said that, there is not a single cahpter, single verse, or single letter in the Quran or sunnah that supports the killings of daughters. infacnt there is a special place in hell for fathers who kill their daughter due to honor and a special " trail" on the day of judgment where the daughter will ask her father for what crime she has been killed for. this is in the Quran. it’s talking about female infanticide and how the arabs used to bury them alive in graves for fear that they will bring dishonor to the family.
    that’s o.k, your a grown adult, you can make whatever choices you want

I deeply am soory if you have felt insulted or hurt by my comments. I ask for your forgiveness if this is so and that we might learn from each other.
peace be with you

You still haven’t pointed to a single falsehood in the article. Perhaps if we focus on a particular statement, it will help the discussion:
“over the centuries the jurists and theologians of Islam have widened the rules of the Qur’an and Islamic tradition into an unlimited licence, some sort of blank cheque, for men to handle women as they deem appropriate”

[quote=fatuma]1. mullahs, imams, ayatollahs are what shaii believe( they up about 12-10% of the muslim ummah,) sunni who make up well over 80% believe in following your own logic by following the Quran and sunnah.
[/quote]

Here you are just wrong. Are you unaware of Sunni Imams of fiqh and Hadith? Or Muftis who issue fatwas? Sunnis left to their private interpretations? You’re being disingenuous.

Moreover, you are sidestepping the issue again. Do I really have to name every clerical and ulemic title in all sects of Islam before you acknowledge that more is at play than just the “Quran and Sunnah”? There is more than a thousand years of Islamic jurisprudence in place. It may be based on the Qur’an and Sunnah, but it is not found in them. Indeed, it often trumps them.

[quote=fatuma]2. I am not paranoid, these are the words that go together thanks to ignorance honor killings=middle-east=islam
[/quote]

Every paranoid says “I am not paranoid”. :smiley:

Nevertheless, you simply cannot point to single bit of evidence on this thread that supports your contention. The one making wild, unsubstantiated charges here is you.

[quote=fatuma]3. there is no islamic country in the owrld, there is no one leader that speaks for muslims
[/quote]

So much for the concept of ummah, eh? :wink:

[quote=fatuma]and thanks to so many problems that have arise from geo-political conflicts that had nothing to do with religion, islam is starting to look like a every man for himself kind of game at the moment.
[/quote]

I completely disagree with your conception of root causes. As long as Islam blames the outsider as the cause of its problems, it will be incapable of reform.

However, I largely agree with your conclusion. It seems to me that Islam is a “last man standing” proposition. As long as might and power are seen as divine gifts, the violent and dangerous strains of Islam will be there. So the only way to know who has “divine right” is to see who is left standing at the end.

[quote=fatuma]neo-nazis also believe themselves to be right when all they do is go to hate sites. Why don’t you try diversifying your knowledge pool in order to have a blanace view
[/quote]

Are you comparing me to neo-nazis now? Are you saying I am unbalanced? Is this site or the source of the article a “hate site”? Tell me, where exactly in the Qur’an does it recommend using insults? :stuck_out_tongue:

[quote=fatuma] this is why I don’t know if you really come from lack of knowdledge or if you just don’t care what any body says and that you will hold on to these beliefs dispite evidence to the contrary
[/quote]

If, instead of throwing insults, you could provide even a shred of evidence supporting your position, I’d be happy to listen.

[quote=fatuma] 5. I see that you have made the choice to ignore this:
Now haven said that, there is not a single cahpter, single verse, or single letter in the Quran or sunnah that supports the killings of daughters.
[/quote]

I ignored it because it was off point. But since you raise it again, it allows me to tie up a few loose ends from your other comments:

1 - “Honor Killings” occur in Islamic communities.
2 - These communities are Arabic…and farsi, and Kurd, and Turk, and Afghan, etc.
3 - The Qur’an is used to justify these killings. Specifically, (a) the verses that reduce women to something close to property, (b) those that recommend beating women for lesser offenses, and © allowing a death penalty for as little as “abandoning the community” or sexual sin (zina).
4 - Men typically escape consequences for HK, again based on the Qur’an, largely those parts that raise men over women.
5 - The Qur’an does not disallow “honor killings.” It has been argued that since the Qur’an is “complete,” that “honor killings” are allowed through silence since they existed before the Qur’an. (That which is not disallowed, is allowed.)
6 - “the Qur’an and Islamic tradition” have been widened to an "unlimited licence, some sort of blank cheque, for men to handle women as they deem appropriate"
7 - Even for Sunnis, ijma (community consensus, including tribal customs) has been used as a source of Islamic law.

While a specific verse that allows “honor killings” may not be found explicitly in the Qur’an, Islamic jurisprudence found it by implication. Attempts to explicitly outlaw “honor killings” in Islamic societies have met much resistance (for example: 1, 2 ) So much for HK being explicitly outlawed by the Qur’an. :banghead:

If Islam can’t or won’t outlaw “honor killings” in wholly Islamic countries, what good is it?

[quote=fatuma]I deeply am soory if you have felt insulted or hurt by my comments.
[/quote]

I didn’t feel hurt or insulted. What I said was that the comment was insulting. Apparently it is a bad habit of yours. :wink:

Peace to you and yours,

p.s., since you apparently deny the validity of certain Islamic sects, why do you not add your own sect to your profile?

Dialoguing with muslims is a waste of time, they don´t recognize anything, there aren´t any auto-critics for their sins, they don´t apologise for anything.

[quote=deen]Honor killing is outright murder in Islam. It is not permissible for a person to kill anyone out of some notion of “honor.” It is by no means exclusive to Muslims and “Islamic countries,” and it violates Islamic law. Racism, sexism, and all forms of bigotry or prejudice are also prohibited in Islam.

Whoever will insist that HK is a part of Islam’s teachings, then the burden of proof is upon him/her. Give us authentic evidence from the Qur’an and Sunnah to prove the allegation.

deen
[/quote]

HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT!! Sexism?? women are treated like dirt! we have seen it countless times on the news, i have experianced it in my own life and yet you can deny it?? im sorry that is BIZARRE to me! like people who deny the Holocaust. i can tell you of the experiances i have had, taking a muslimah friend of mine home from night classes at the college, her husband being furious, because i was a westerner she devil, my hair wasnt covered, i smoked cigarettes, i had my radio on and was driving around at night with out my husband, all because one of classes got cancelled so we got out early that night. when she came back to school, i could only speak to her after her husband had gone, we werent allowed to study together anymore outside of HIS home. i havent heard from her since i finished school there. it hurts me because she was a very nice woman and we got along great and worked very well together. but i could tell that she was afraid of her husband. whenever i asked her about it, she said it was their way. it was her job to please her husband. i told her that here she didnt have to put up with that garbage, here we have laws that protect women, and all she could speak of was dishonoring her husband. they were young and newly wed. new to being over here. last I heard from a friend of ours was that she was gonna leave him. i dont know if that ever happened though. last time i saw her i ran into her at Walmart, i went over to say hi and she shook her head “no” at me, and then she wouldnt even speak to me. i soon realized why, when her husband turned the corner. i would have called the police on him myself. but i was afraid it would only make things worse, and she said she loved him, that he could just be a bit brutish sometimes when it came to westerners, especially women. but she said she loved him. and that his cruelty was tradition. it was his job to teach her to be a good wife, and that she was lucky her husband was so advanced as to let her go to school at night without him. i felt so sorry for her. you can deny deny deny, but turn on CNN and there it is nine times outta ten, right there in your face. i have witnessed it first hand my friend. i wish you could find the truth the happiness, the peace and the love and the joy that Catholicism and most importantly that Christ has to offer you. he loves all his children and is waiting with open arms for you to hear the good news and come home to him. i prayed for you and the others here in this forum at Mass this sunday. i will dedicate my holy hours to you all this week, and pray hard for your homecoming to the Church. im a legionary of Mary. we are Marys soldiers, and we try our hardest to be like Mary to Immulate her in every way. my patience is the part i have the hardest time with, i wish i had her saintly patience, but i have a will that is steadfast. I will continue to pray and pray and pray for you my friends. God Bless, and may the Love of Mary ever virgin, be with you always.

[quote=TarAshly]HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT!! Sexism?? women are treated like dirt! we have seen it countless times on the news, i have experianced it in my own life and yet you can deny it?? im sorry that is BIZARRE to me! like people who deny the Holocaust. i can tell you of the experiances i have had, taking a muslimah friend of mine home from night classes at the college, her husband being furious, because i was a westerner she devil, my hair wasnt covered, i smoked cigarettes, i had my radio on and was driving around at night with out my husband, all because one of classes got cancelled so we got out early that night. when she came back to school, i could only speak to her after her husband had gone, we werent allowed to study together anymore outside of HIS home. i havent heard from her since i finished school there. it hurts me because she was a very nice woman and we got along great and worked very well together. but i could tell that she was afraid of her husband. whenever i asked her about it, she said it was their way. it was her job to please her husband. i told her that here she didnt have to put up with that garbage, here we have laws that protect women, and all she could speak of was dishonoring her husband. they were young and newly wed. new to being over here. last I heard from a friend of ours was that she was gonna leave him. i dont know if that ever happened though. last time i saw her i ran into her at Walmart, i went over to say hi and she shook her head “no” at me, and then she wouldnt even speak to me. i soon realized why, when her husband turned the corner. i would have called the police on him myself. but i was afraid it would only make things worse, and she said she loved him, that he could just be a bit brutish sometimes when it came to westerners, especially women. but she said she loved him. and that his cruelty was tradition. it was his job to teach her to be a good wife, and that she was lucky her husband was so advanced as to let her go to school at night without him. i felt so sorry for her. you can deny deny deny, but turn on CNN and there it is nine times outta ten, right there in your face. i have witnessed it first hand my friend. i wish you could find the truth the happiness, the peace and the love and the joy that Catholicism and most importantly that Christ has to offer you. he loves all his children and is waiting with open arms for you to hear the good news and come home to him. i prayed for you and the others here in this forum at Mass this sunday. i will dedicate my holy hours to you all this week, and pray hard for your homecoming to the Church. im a legionary of Mary. we are Marys soldiers, and we try our hardest to be like Mary to Immulate her in every way. my patience is the part i have the hardest time with, i wish i had her saintly patience, but i have a will that is steadfast. I will continue to pray and pray and pray for you my friends. God Bless, and may the Love of Mary ever virgin, be with you always.
[/quote]

Until you give us some authentic evidence from the Qur’an and Hadith that HK is allowed in Islam, all these fantastic stories mean nothing to discredit our religion. In other words, they have NO CREDIBILITY WHATSOEVER.

CNN, BBC, etc are not Islamic sources ok? :smiley:

peace,

deen

I understand that this is directed at another poster, however i need to say something. I appreciate that we all want to learn from each other, these forums are a great blessing. However i think the problem is that one is refusing to “hear” the other, like we just absolutely cannot proccess it, or we cannot understand or even think about another view point other than our own. Cultural differences get mixed with religious differences and pretty soon we just a have a big ol’ hot mess of anger. i am guilty of it too on this forum. we get heated, and we all think that we are trying to do the right thing. we may just have to agree to disagree. but we shouldnt insult one another. we should take this as an opportunity to learn from each other and to help each other. cultural understanding is necessary for peace. i was a culture major in college, mainly mexican, spanish and latin american culture, but i have always been fascinated by other people and their beliefs, traditions and values. so i thought i could get in this forum and be cool and collected, didnt happen, i got heated as well i would rather think i was just being passionate about my faith. but i can find some error in my ways. as Catholics we tend to get our feathers ruffled when we feel we arent getting our message across, not to be right, but to be helpful and do Gods work to evangelize. let us not forget my Catholic brothers and sisters, we are called to evangelize and we have the opportunity here to do that. lets take advantage of it today. lets be charitable and kind, and speak the word of God to perhaps change some hearts. maybe we cant change their faiths, but maybe we can at least change their views about our society and culture.

God Bless,
Tara

[quote=deen]Until you give us some authentic evidence from the Qur’an and Hadith that HK is allowed in Islam, all these fantastic stories mean nothing to discredit our religion. In other words, they have NO CREDIBILITY WHATSOEVER.

CNN, BBC, etc are not Islamic sources ok? :smiley:

peace,

deen
[/quote]

Deen i and others have shown you, but until you take your head out of the sand, and quit hiding from the truth, you wont see it. just look up! we are showing it to you. and im not trying to discredit your religion, im trying to make you see another point of view my friend. how many more times do i have to show it to you?? you ask us to see your point of view, to understand you. why can you not even attempt to see ours? you refuse to hear it any other way, and if it werent for the fact that i am trying to achieve a higher goal here, and achieve some evangelization, some conversion maybe, i would have walked from this thread a long time ago. sure would have saved me some aggrevation, but it wouldnt have saved anyone anything else. Mary has called me to evangelize as her legionary, God has called me to as his child, Christ has called me to as his follower, the Holy Spirit burns inside of me whenever i get a chance to evangelize. Thats the reason im here. i have and will continue to pray for you. for your conversion of heart. i only wish i could get a green scapular to you, but i cant, so i will just send lots of prayers and Christs love and peace your way Deen. :gopray2:

[quote=TarAshly]Deen i and others have shown you, but until you take your head out of the sand, and quit hiding from the truth, you wont see it. just look up! we are showing it to you. and im not trying to discredit your religion, im trying to make you see another point of view my friend. how many more times do i have to show it to you??
[/quote]

Did I not post in english? Or maybe I have to make it in big letters:

WHERE IN THE QUR’AN AND HADITH DOES IT SAY THAT HONOR KILLING IS ALLOWED IN ISLAM?

The more you give me proof from outside these sources, the more I will ask.

peace,

deen

[quote=deen]Until you give us some authentic evidence from the Qur’an and Hadith that HK is allowed in Islam, all these fantastic stories mean nothing to discredit our religion. In other words, they have NO CREDIBILITY WHATSOEVER.
[/quote]

Deen, Honor Killings happen in Muslim countries where Islam is practiced and the Quran is read. They are not punished like they should be. I find it so sad that countries that claim so much faith can be so mean to women in general. It is common in these countries. Stoning still takes place for adultery, but to only women. I am sorry, these allegations do have credibility. You can say all you want but we have read about it from many sources. I have felt sorry for Middle Eastern women from the time I read about what they go through in their cultures. Whether this is influenced by the Quran or not really isn’t the main point either. It happens and most proclaim to be followers of Islam. Anything that contributes to women being treated like property is rather sad and definitely criminal.

[quote=TarAshly] Thats the reason im here. i have and will continue to pray for you. for your conversion of heart. i only wish i could get a green scapular to you, but i cant, so i will just send lots of prayers and Christs love and peace your way Deen. :gopray2:
[/quote]

Thank you very much. I know you are sincere. But emotions can blind. Let’s put that aside first and study the facts from our scriptures. I will also pray that you die in the state of Islam because it is not easy to be grilled/barbecued in hellfire forever.

peace,

deen

[quote=deen]Did I not post in english? Or maybe I have to make it in big letters:

WHERE IN THE QUR’AN AND HADITH DOES IT SAY THAT HONOR KILLING IS ALLOWED IN ISLAM?

The more you give me proof from outside these sources, the more I will ask.

peace,

deen
[/quote]

Hey guess what? I CAN READ! in three languages even! i saw it. can you read the other posts, the posts in other threads of this forum where they have quoted your koran? its there. just skim through them and you will find it.

God Bless,
Tara

[quote=deen]Thank you very much. I know you are sincere. But emotions can blind. Let’s put that aside first and study the facts from our scriptures. I will also pray that you die in the state of Islam because it is not easy to be grilled/barbecued in hellfire forever.

peace,

deen
[/quote]

I hope i die in a state of grace, Gods grace, with my last rites, my rosary in hand, and with the knowledge that i have been a good wife, a good mother, a good daughter, a good sister, a good friend, a good legionary, but most importantly a good Catholic, that i have served and loved the Lord with all my heart, with all my being. what a beautiful state of grace that will be. and when i am able to touch the face of God, to know that i have loved him and he has loved me, all my struggles and aggrevations and hard work and worry will have been so worth it.

God Bless you Deen, because he loves you more than you will ever know.

Tara

[quote=Fitz]Deen, Honor Killings happen in Muslim countries where Islam is practiced and the Quran is read. They are not punished like they should be. I find it so sad that countries that claim so much faith can be so mean to women in general. It is common in these countries. Stoning still takes place for adultery, but to only women. I am sorry, these allegations do have credibility. You can say all you want but we have read about it from many sources. I have felt sorry for Middle Eastern women from the time I read about what they go through in their cultures. Whether this is influenced by the Quran or not really isn’t the main point either. It happens and most proclaim to be followers of Islam. Anything that contributes to women being treated like property is rather sad and definitely criminal.
[/quote]

Here is another one…Look, I live in a Catholic Christian country and I can enumerate the heinous crimes of many Christians - from killing, domestic violence, rapes, corruption and even PRIESTS SEXUALLY MOLESTING WOMEN ! Now did they get that from the Bible ? Get real people!

peace,

deen

Double post. Sorry.

peace,

deen

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