Muslim Apostates

I read about a petition that requests Islamic nations cease arresting, torturing, and executing Muslims who join another religion. It supports freedom of religion. Some Muslims, from nations that do these things, deny they happen. Others say the apostates deserve it. A few admit it happens, but are afraid to speak out against it. This deafening silence extends to the genocide in Sudan where Muslims brand black Christians and enslave them. At least the ones they don’t kill. Funny how our media seems to miss those atrocities.

Apologetics and evangelization of Muslims is bound to be a growing area of concern. I hope more materials come out to assist us in evangelizing Muslims and supporting those who do convert. Pray for our persecuted brethren.

Really, I am beginning to believe that the press is a far worse problem that the muslims because their attack on Christianity is in every aspect of Western life.

The Muslim religion is flawed with text and tradition integral to its message that includes hatred and violence toward non-belivers of Islam. It will never be cooperative or tolerant of Christians without strong national enforcement and honest critism presented in the Media.

Chuck

We are at war and the media acts like we are the bad guys. This whole thing could eventually become a real crusade. But I don’t think France could produce another Charles Martel.

You guys are blaming the media for the problem with the Mohammedians when you should be looking a bit higher here. Remember the old Roman saying: Qualis Rex, Talis Grex. How can the media report on the global Islamic threat (although in fairness, I have seen several Frontline pieces on it from the PBS stations) when the current President and administration has it’s noses so far up the noses of the Saudi royals’ heinies? I nearly had to physically restrain myself from wretching everytime I heard Bush say repeatedly, “Islam is a religion of peace.” Peace of mind for the investors in oil maybe…

Hi, all.

I converted to Islam in my teens. Now over 20 years later I have to live in hiding in Canada away from my homecountry Norway.
I’m considered to be an apostate from Islam since I have left Islam. I’m now in the process of becoming a Catholic Christian. According to many Muslim scholars I have commited a heinous crime and should be executed for this. Some of these scholars and some denominations consider it a straight way to Paradise if they kill an apostate.

My former husband and his family and friends also pose a danger to me. I’m sure that you have heard about Honor Killings.

I have to add that there is some disagreement among the scholars as to whether an apostate should be executed or not. Some mean that an apostate should be given the chance to repent (three days) and if they go back to Islam then all is OK. Other scholars also have the opinion that an apostate should be heard and it should be determined how much knowledge the person had about Islam before they converted or if their conversion were forced or not. If it’s proven they didn’t have sufficient knowledge about Islam or they were forced into Islam they should not be considered to be apostates.

The real problem is that many lay Muslims do have very little knowledge about Islam and that Islam is practiced differently from culture to culture, even within one country. For instance in Pakistan you have Muslims who are very liberal and Western oriented to the Taliban style Muslims.

Some Muslims and then especially the type of Muslims that are more likely to support terrorist activities would not think twice about killing an apostate like myself.

[quote=Salvo]You guys are blaming the media for the problem with the Mohammedians when you should be looking a bit higher here. Remember the old Roman saying: Qualis Rex, Talis Grex. How can the media report on the global Islamic threat (although in fairness, I have seen several Frontline pieces on it from the PBS stations) when the current President and administration has it’s noses so far up the noses of the Saudi royals’ heinies? I nearly had to physically restrain myself from wretching everytime I heard Bush say repeatedly, “Islam is a religion of peace.” Peace of mind for the investors in oil maybe…
[/quote]

How does the position of the administration regarding the Saudis keep the media from reporting?

the genocide in Sudan is horrible.
The US needs to do something since the inept UN apparently either won’t or can’t.
I am reading a book right now called, Inside Islam, A Guide for Catholics by Daniel Ali who was a muslim convert to Catholicism.
it has a very good foreward by Fr. Mitch Pacwa, SJ.

It is amazing what Islam believes and what they believe about Christianity.

Danman,

Interesting. Never heard of that book. I’ll look it up. I’ve read a lot of them but that one sounds very interesting.

Ken,

You’re a big boy, you do the math. If you work for a network television programme and write a story that is unfavourable to the current administration, you will essentially be frozen out of all press-conferences and lose your edge on any competitive stories. The relationship of the Bush family and the Saudis was never a secret. But you still don’t hear about it on FOX or CNN.

[quote=Salvo]Danman,

Interesting. Never heard of that book. I’ll look it up. I’ve read a lot of them but that one sounds very interesting.

Ken,

You’re a big boy, you do the math. If you work for a network television programme and write a story that is unfavourable to the current administration, you will essentially be frozen out of all press-conferences and lose your edge on any competitive stories. The relationship of the Bush family and the Saudis was never a secret. But you still don’t hear about it on FOX or CNN.
[/quote]

That’s interesting.

If that were true, then the New York Times, CNN, Washington Post, LA Times, ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, and NPR would all have lost their competitive edges and be frozen out of press conferences. They have all run unfavorable stories about the current administration.

Is PBS frozen out?

What is the relationshiop between Bush and the Saudis?

Hey, speaking of Muslim apostates, anyone here think TIX is still Muslim? My guess is he is not, and that he’s at this point probably more Unitarian than anything. But because of his ego, he needs to keep up appearances.

Anyone else think different?

[quote=Salvo]Hey, speaking of Muslim apostates, anyone here think TIX is still Muslim? My guess is he is not, and that he’s at this point probably more Unitarian than anything. But because of his ego, he needs to keep up appearances.

Anyone else think different?
[/quote]

Ahem…who is TIX?

[quote=Sunniva]Ahem…who is TIX?
[/quote]

Hello Sunni,

Short answer: He was an emotionally disturbed Muslim who used to post on the “other”.

Longer answer: He was a guy (?) who claimed 1) to be Morrocan royalty, 2) to be married to 2 women, 3) he had a Catholic Belgian mother, 4) he was getting his doctorate in Muslim theology from a European University.

Regardless of who he really is/was, from observation I can say this: he spoke several languages (badly), had a very rudimentary understanding of christianity, and was knowledgeble on Islam to the extent that it fit into his view of the world. He “cyber-stalked” a few of us (yes, yours truly included) and claimed to have found out through his secret intelligence networks who several of us were (never substantiated though).

As Muslims go, he was rational to a degree, but when you showed him how he was wrong on any subject, he would immediately throw a tantrum and start saying you were persecuting him and didn’t know what you were talking about to begin with. But sometimes you could actually hear the faint sound of the wheels of intelligence rotating in his brain. And you were sure that any second he might actually reach the conclusion that everything he was taught was really a lie. But he was never actually man enough to admit any of his mistakes, so I think in the end, regardless of what he truly believes, he probably plays the “good Muslim”. But I honestly can’t see anyone with his level of knowledge remaining a believing Muslim.

It may be comforting for Christians in an age of modernism and ecumenism to reflect on the ease with which one can switch from this belief to that without any really serious and adverse consequences in the here and now; at worst a mere excommunication: only the hereafter reaches, ineffectively I fear, across the mortal divide to warn, to remonstrate and perhaps terrify. It may not always have been like this - before modernism took hold. Today people generally no longer take fright of religion or fear the impositions in a secular domain of penalties for such a ‘wickedness’ as ‘apostasy’.

But in Islam which has not yet succumbed to modernism and the attenuation of its beliefs, ‘apostasy’ is a serious business, viewed with horror and disgust as well as loathing and many countries are well situated to ensure that it is a crime whose magnitude can be dealt with here and now in a most conclusive manner: death. (Sunniva’s personal account is frightening)

Whether or not Islam is a threat, an aggressive or whatever religion (it may well be all of these) out to dominate by the sword does not really have too much to do with apostasy as such. Is it not we who are tame and weak, lily-livered in the luxury of ease that enables us to consider moving this way or that in a variety of religious directions? Ah, wretched question! For we live in a secular polity, a liberal and pluralist one, which facilitates these comfortable and easy moves – should we wish to make them. There are no serious consequences other than perdition and damnation hereafter – nothing to worry about, nothing substantial that might interfere with a good night’s sleep, provided that such a soporific is ready to hand – and of course it may well not be. For some in a number of Islamic countries it is obviously not so easy. They are not allowed to convert and neither is one allowed to convert them (I do not know what the penalties for missionaries are in this regard; I should think they are none too pleasant.)

DEM

Salvo,

Interesting comment about a particular Muslim’s being rational to a degree and still somehow remaining within their faith, playing the ‘good Muslim’. Such things are possible. Must I not say to those who doubt this: ‘Oh ye of little faith!’. Interesting to note, if you look at Gellner’s ‘Postmodernism, Reason and Religion’ how he was to have worked in conjunction with a scholar, Professor Abkar S. Ahmed who shared Gellner’s interest in Muslim tribal organisation. They were to comment from their own opposing perspectives – one deeply religious, highly educated and committed to his Faith (Islam); the other the firm and resolute advocate of scientific rationality and Enlightenment thinking and not at all impressed by any religious claims. It was, so Gellner hoped, to be a discussion of the same theme (postmodernism etc.)…… ‘with courtesy and in an amicable manner. It might even set a good example’ (Preface to Gellner’s book). But Ahmed’s contribution had to come out as a book on its own (I have not read it), entitled ‘Postmodernism and Islam’ because in the end the publishers insisted on separate publications – which I think may have upset both writers.

But as for Tix (and we must not become a forum within a forum), I greatly enjoyed the exchanges between him and Cestus. I, as an observer, found Tix a strange confection of delights, with a peculiar mastery of the English language, second to none, very much a prima donna but I never really doubted that he was as he described himself. I often thought he was intelligent enough to convert but who knows, living where he did, the feasibility of such a move. But still, that’s another story.

DEM

[quote=David E. Mahony]It may be comforting for Christians in an age of modernism and ecumenism to reflect on the ease with which one can switch from this belief to that without any really serious and adverse consequences in the here and now; at worst a mere excommunication: only the hereafter reaches, ineffectively I fear, across the mortal divide to warn, to remonstrate and perhaps terrify. It may not always have been like this - before modernism took hold. Today people generally no longer take fright of religion or fear the impositions in a secular domain of penalties for such a ‘wickedness’ as ‘apostasy’.

But in Islam which has not yet succumbed to modernism and the attenuation of its beliefs, ‘apostasy’ is a serious business, viewed with horror and disgust as well as loathing and many countries are well situated to ensure that it is a crime whose magnitude can be dealt with here and now in a most conclusive manner: death. (Sunniva’s personal account is frightening)

Whether or not Islam is a threat, an aggressive or whatever religion (it may well be all of these) out to dominate by the sword does not really have too much to do with apostasy as such. Is it not we who are tame and weak, lily-livered in the luxury of ease that enables us to consider moving this way or that in a variety of religious directions? Ah, wretched question! For we live in a secular polity, a liberal and pluralist one, which facilitates these comfortable and easy moves – should we wish to make them. There are no serious consequences other than perdition and damnation hereafter – nothing to worry about, nothing substantial that might interfere with a good night’s sleep, provided that such a soporific is ready to hand – and of course it may well not be. For some in a number of Islamic countries it is obviously not so easy. They are not allowed to convert and neither is one allowed to convert them (I do not know what the penalties for missionaries are in this regard; I should think they are none too pleasant.)

DEM
[/quote]

(bolded by me)

It’s true that it’s against the law for a Muslim to convert to any religion. It’s punishable by death. The same goes for people who try to convert Muslims. I wouldn’t be surprised if missionaries can risk severe torture.

Many people wonder why so few Muslims embrace Christianity (or other religions for that matter). That’s the reason. They will be killed if they do and their family can also risk severe punishment. A married woman who apostate from Islam is automatically divorced (just like an abortion cause automatically excommunication for a Catholic) and will very likely be killed by her husband, relatives, other Muslims or the state itself. She will surely loose any contact with her children (what if she pollute their minds).

If a married man apostates from Islam he is also automatically divorced although he doesn’t risk being killed by his spouse. His relatives or the state might incarcerate him, put him to trial and execute him.

I know for a fact that there are many closet Christians out there. Christians that in order to save their own lives and the lives of their families have to practise their faith in secret. Outwardly they still pretend to be Muslims. These people need a safe haven if they should be able openly show their love for Christ.

The question is are we willing to welcome these people and give them refuge and a safe haven? I know from Norway that former Muslims who claim to have converted to Christianity very seldom are given refugee status on that ground, even if they claim that they will be executed on return to their Muslim home countries.

Here is a link to KABA who consist of former Muslims who have converted to Christianity (mostly Pentecostal) and helps other Muslims who also wants to convert.

Sunni,

Thanks for the link. Very interesting. I had no idea there were so many Muslim converts in Norway to begin with.

[quote=David E. Mahony]It may be comforting for Christians in an age of modernism and ecumenism to reflect on the ease with which one can switch from this belief to that without any really serious and adverse consequences in the here and now; at worst a mere excommunication: only the hereafter reaches, ineffectively I fear, across the mortal divide to warn, to remonstrate and perhaps terrify. It may not always have been like this - before modernism took hold. Today people generally no longer take fright of religion or fear the impositions in a secular domain of penalties for such a ‘wickedness’ as ‘apostasy’.

But in Islam which has not yet succumbed to modernism and the attenuation of its beliefs, ‘apostasy’ is a serious business, viewed with horror and disgust as well as loathing and many countries are well situated to ensure that it is a crime whose magnitude can be dealt with here and now in a most conclusive manner: death. (Sunniva’s personal account is frightening)

Whether or not Islam is a threat, an aggressive or whatever religion (it may well be all of these) out to dominate by the sword does not really have too much to do with apostasy as such. Is it not we who are tame and weak, lily-livered in the luxury of ease that enables us to consider moving this way or that in a variety of religious directions? Ah, wretched question! For we live in a secular polity, a liberal and pluralist one, which facilitates these comfortable and easy moves – should we wish to make them. There are no serious consequences other than perdition and damnation hereafter – nothing to worry about, nothing substantial that might interfere with a good night’s sleep, provided that such a soporific is ready to hand – and of course it may well not be. For some in a number of Islamic countries it is obviously not so easy. They are not allowed to convert and neither is one allowed to convert them (I do not know what the penalties for missionaries are in this regard; I should think they are none too pleasant.)

DEM
[/quote]

(bolded by me)

It’s true that it’s against the law for a Muslim to convert to any religion. It’s punishable by death. The same goes for people who try to convert Muslims. I wouldn’t be surprised if missionaries can risk severe torture.

Many people wonder why so few Muslims embrace Christianity (or other religions for that matter). That’s the reason. They will be killed if they do and their family can also risk severe punishment. A married woman who apostate from Islam is automatically divorced (just like an abortion cause automatically excommunication for a Catholic) and will very likely be killed by her husband, relatives, other Muslims or the state itself. She will surely loose any contact with her children (what if she pollute their minds).

If a married man apostates from Islam he is also automatically divorced although he doesn’t risk being killed by his spouse. His relatives or the state might incarcerate him, put him to trial and execute him.

I know for a fact that there are many closet Christians out there. Christians that in order to save their own lives and the lives of their families have to practise their faith in secret. Outwardly they still pretend to be Muslims. These people need a safe haven if they should be able openly show their love for Christ.

The question is are we willing to welcome these people and give them refuge and a safe haven? I know from Norway that former Muslims who claim to have converted to Christianity very seldom are given refugee status on that ground, even if they claim that they will be executed on return to their Muslim home countries.

Here is a link to KABA who consist of former Muslims who have converted to Christianity (mostly Pentecostal) and helps other Muslims who also wants to convert.

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