Muslim Population Growth


#1

This video on the predicted growth of Islam may be a little outdated, but I’d like to hear some opinions:

youtube.com/watch?v=33e11S-ztjc


#2

That was a really SCARY video

My thoughts are if this is absolutely true, then there needs to be some serious actions taken!


#3

The narrator's voice is annoying. He sounds like the narrator for a forensic crime documentary.

Low fertility rates reduce population, but fertility rates change frequently; the US fertility rate in 1935 was 2.0, in 1955 it was 3.7, in 1975 it was 1.8. Right now it is 2.0 again. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate#United_States) If you liked, you could say that the US is now at 1935 fertility levels, and you'd be correct. So no, fertility rates are hardly something that are set in stone.

The narrator says that population reductions are "impossible to reverse", and that any attempt at reversal would take multiple generations, but this is quite obviously untrue. It would take only a single generation of high fertility to cause a population boom (just like the Baby Boom here in the US). I'm not sure the narrator understands how fertility rates actually work.

Anyway, all that being said, it is true that there needs to be 2.3 children per couple in order to maintain a society's existing population size. (2 children to replace the 2 parents when they die, and then the additional .3 to account for things like infant mortality). It's also true that about half the countries in the world have fertility rates below the 2.3 figure. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territories_by_fertility_rate) The European Union does have one of the lowest fertility rates, at 1.9. However, one should also keep in mind that economic downturns tend to decrease birth rates (nobody wants to have a baby when the economy's in the dump), so once the economy improves we will probably see the birth rates there increase as well.

The video gets its facts completely wrong when it says that Muslim countries have a fertility rate of 8.1. That's not just wrong, that's mindblowingly wrong. Taking the fertility rates of the 10 most highly populated Muslim-majority countries gives an average rate of 2.99. (Only three of the countries had a rate higher than 3.0, and the highest was 5.32. I calculated these numbers based on this and this and can show my calculations if anyone is actually interested in it.) In fact, according to the UN, the CIA World Factbook, and the World Bank, no country AT ALL on earth has a birth rate as high as 8.1. Ten minutes on google would put an end to so many conspiracy theories.

Most Muslim immigrants entering France are coming from former French colonial countries (e.g. Algeria, Morocco, etc.), so France's Muslim population is rising much more than countries who have never had Muslim-majority colonies. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_France) In a way, France's culture-clash troubles with Islam today are a result of its imperialist history coming back to haunt it. The total Muslim population in France is about 10%, so it's not like they're on the brink of overrunning the country or some such.

Only 5% of the population of the Netherlands is Muslim, so I am extremely skeptical of the movie's claim that 50% of all newborns there are born to Islamic families. It's true that the percentage of Muslims in the UK is growing startlingly quickly, but they are still less than 5% of of the total population, so once again it's not like they're on the verge of taking over. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_Kingdom) Also, the majority of Muslims who move to the UK or Europe tend to become Anglicized or Europeanized and are a good deal more liberal than their counterparts in, say, Iran.

Long story short, most of the video's population "facts" are either extremely exaggerated or completely wrong, and the narrator seems to have put more effort into practicing his "scary voice" than actually researching.


#4

I'm not sure about the numbers in the video you posted :shrug:, but here's what one of their preachers has to say:

youtube.com/watch?v=0iaAgu1fRCA


#5

Islamophobic rubbish... A few things:

-Any video that says that "Muslims are taking over the world" loses virtually all it's credibility because it is clearly a polemic, and will distort facts to make a point. In this case, a xenophobic point.
-The statistics on the historical survival of culture are made moot by the fact that we now live in a globalized, information technology, connected society. We have no idea how these factors will affect the development of "culture."
-On the same token, we have no idea how the rising population of the WORLD will affect culture... Given the earth's failing ability to sustain us, I think we have bigger problems. Which leads me to my next point...
-The Church survives and grew as a persecuted minority amidst pagans for 300 years. So relax. God's got our back, and he's got it without us having to become xenophobic maniacs.

My two cents. And to the poster who said that something has to be done... What exactly do you propose?? I can imagine nothing but evil coming from a fearful response to this problem (a "problem" that I believe is largely exaggerated by this video anyway).


#6

[quote="IbnFiktur, post:5, topic:293636"]
Islamophobic rubbish... A few things:

-Any video that says that "Muslims are taking over the world" loses virtually all it's credibility because it is clearly a polemic, and will distort facts to make a point. In this case, a xenophobic point.
-The statistics on the historical survival of culture are made moot by the fact that we now live in a globalized, information technology, connected society. We have no idea how these factors will affect the development of "culture."
-On the same token, we have no idea how the rising population of the WORLD will affect culture... Given the earth's failing ability to sustain us, I think we have bigger problems. Which leads me to my next point...
-The Church survives and grew as a persecuted minority amidst pagans for 300 years. So relax. God's got our back, and he's got it without us having to become xenophobic maniacs.

My two cents. And to the poster who said that something has to be done... What exactly do you propose?? I can imagine nothing but evil coming from a fearful response to this problem (a "problem" that I believe is largely exaggerated by this video anyway).

[/quote]

You are wrong. This is what the hadith has to say:

حدثنا ابن وهب عن معاوية بن صالح عن حدير بن كريب عن جبير بن نفير عن يزيد بن شريح
عن كعب قال في فتح رومية يخرج جيش من المغرب بريح شرقية لا ينكسر لهم مقذاف ولا ينقطع لهم حبل ولا ينحرق لهم قلع ولا تنتقص لهم قربة حتى يرسوا برومية فيفتحونها
قال كعب إن فيها لشجرة هي في كتاب الله مجلس ثلاثة آلاف فمن علق فيها سلاحه أو ربط فيها فرسه فهو عند الله تعالى من أفضل الشهداء
قال كعب تفتح عمورية قبل نيقية ونيقية قبل القسطنطينية والقسطنطينية قبل رومية

For those who don't know arabic:
Ka'b said: " In the conquest of Rome, an army will leave the Maghreb (Morocco, Algeria, and Tunis) with an easterly wind. None of their rowing oars break and none of their ropes get cut-off, til they reach Rome. They will conquer it. It (Rome) has a tree which is mentioned in the Book of Allah ... whoever hangs his weapon or ties his horse to it is considered by Allah one of the best martyrs. Ka'b also said: "Amoria will be conquered before Nicaea (a city in Turkey where today's Christian creed was formulated in 325 AD), Nicaea before Constantinople, and Constantinople before Rome." (Nuaim bin Hammad's Kitab al-Fitan)

أخرج ( ك ) أيضا عن أرطاة قال:

بلغني أن المهدي يعيش أربعين عاما, ثم يموت على فراشه, ثم يخرج رجل من قحطان, مثقوب الأذنين, على سيرة المهدي, بقاؤه عشرين سنة, ثم يموت قتلا بالسلاح ثم يخرج رجل من  أهل بيت النبي  مهدي حسن السيرة,  يفتح ]  مدينة  قيصر, وهو آخر أمير من أمة محمد  , ثم يخرج في زمانه الدجال, وينزل في زمانه عيسى بن مريم 

For those who don't know arabic:
Arta said: "It has reached me that the Mahdi will live for forty years, then he will die on his bed. Then, a man from Qahtan will come, with pierced ears, who will follow the example of the Mahdi. He will remain for twenty years and then he will die, killed by a weapon. Then, a man will come from the household of the Prophet, a mahdi (rightly guided) of good reputation, who will conquer the City of Caesar (Rome or Constantinople). He will be the last Amir (Prince) from the Ummah of Muhammad. During his time, the Dajjal (Anti-Christ) will come out, and during his time, Jesus son of Mary will descend." (Nuaim bin Hammad's Kitab Al-Fitan, Jalal-uddine AsSuyuti's Al-Urf Al-Wardi fi Akhbar Al-Mahdi, a part of Al-Hawi li Al-Fatawa).

And finally:
Abdullah bin Amr bin Al-Aas reports: "Whilst we were around the Prophet writing down, he was asked, "Which of the two cities is to be opened (conquered) first, Constantinople or Rome ?" He (the Prophet) answered, "The City of Heracles (Constantinople) will be opened (conquered) first!" (Darimi, Ahmad, Al-Albany)

Though that's not all, there are many more passages that speak of invading in Islam.

Here is a video of what a Coptic priest has to say on islam:
youtube.com/watch?v=_eMGbGWbBnU


#7

Suraya,

What collection of Hadith are you drawing these from?

Do you honestly believe that your average Muslim intends or wants to invade Rome?

And I remain unconcerned, mostly because of the 4th bullet point I posted.

I'm also unconcerned because as a Christian I don't lend predictions in the Hadith much credence.


#8

[quote="IbnFiktur, post:7, topic:293636"]
Suraya,

What collection of Hadith are you drawing these from?

Do you honestly believe that your average Muslim intends or wants to invade Rome?

And I remain unconcerned, mostly because of the 4th bullet point I posted.

I'm also unconcerned because as a Christian I don't lend predictions in the Hadith much credence.

[/quote]

Islam is islam whether you want it you want or not. My people have been persecuted numerous times under that false reigion, so I know very well what it is about.

This video shows what Middle-eastern/Arab christians (who lived or still live in the Middle-East) think about islam (not necessarily individual muslims):
youtube.com/watch?v=hfXE-_wxsCM&feature=related

I'm not here to scare anybody, but again Islam is Islam no matter what you want to think.


#9

[quote="Suraya, post:8, topic:293636"]
Islam is islam whether you want it you want or not. My people have been persecuted numerous times under that false reigion, so I know very well what it is about.

This video shows what Middle-eastern/Arab christians (who lived or still live in the Middle-East) think about islam (not necessarily individual muslims):
youtube.com/watch?v=hfXE-_wxsCM&feature=related

I'm not here to scare anybody, but again Islam is Islam no matter what you want to think.

[/quote]

Islam is Islam, Muslims are Muslims... Is Christianity Christianty? Are the sick men from the Westboro Baptist Church who scream hate and defile the funerals of my fallen brothers and my country's fallen sons the same as the faithful Christians who endure persecution? Are the Catholics who raped and murdered the natives of America the same as the Catholics who today preach peace and social justice for minorities? Are these truly fair statements?

Edit- you also didn't tell me which Hadith collection you got those from. I'm sincerely curious and would like to research them.


#10

[quote="IbnFiktur, post:9, topic:293636"]
Islam is Islam, Muslims are Muslims... Is Christianity Christianty? Are the sick men from the Westboro Baptist Church who scream hate and defile the funerals of my fallen brothers and my country's fallen sons the same as the faithful Christians who endure persecution? Are the Catholics who raped and murdered the natives of America the same as the Catholics who today preach peace and social justice for minorities? Are these truly fair statements?

Edit- you also didn't tell me why Hadith collection you got those from. I'm sincerely curious and would like to research them.

[/quote]

Look, if you want to know what islam is, then just read the quran (in arabic since it's apparently the only language that is valid) and the hadith (samething, in arabic).
If you want to know where I get my sources, watch father Zacharias Botros videos on Youtube.

And by the way, islam conquered through the sword in the beginning and still does. There is no love in it like there is in Christianity. And please stop making Christianity sound like it's on par with islam. The real christians are those who follow the Gospel of Christ (love, humility, forgiveness, etc.) whereas real muslims are those who keep in line with the teachings of Mohammed (Islamic law, hatred of Christianity, etc).

True islam is routed in politics. In reality, it is an ideology and if you really want to experience it, go live in the Middle-East. I know since I come from over there.

edit: In the video that posted in my previous post, it tells you why good Muslims don't behave like the extremist (Islamists).


#11

[quote="Suraya, post:10, topic:293636"]
Look, if you want to know what islam is, then just read the quran (in arabic since it's apparently the only language that is valid) and the hadith (samething, in arabic).
If you want to know where I get my sources, watch father Zacharias Botros videos on Youtube.

And by the way, islam conquered through the sword in the beginning and still does. There is no love in it like in Christianity. And please stop making Christianity sound like it's on par with islam. The real christians are those who follow the Gospel of Christ (love, humility, forgiveness, etc.) whereas real muslims are those who keep in line with the teachings of Mohammed (Islamic law, hatred of Christianity, etc).

[/quote]

I have read the Qur'an both in English and in Arabic. I do not believe it is authentic scripture; I am a Catholic Christian.

I am also not trying to put Islam and Christianity on the same level. What I am saying is that we should judge Muslims not on the atrocities committed by SOME believers (our own list of atrocities is far too long to try to do that).

Islam did spread by the sword. Christianity spread in spite of persecution. This is why I believe Christianity to be the true faith, and why I KNOW that we have nothing to fear, from Muslims (who by and large are good, loving people) or anyone else.

What I am urging for is FAITH in God, HOPE which keeps us from falling into fear, and CHARITY because we will not allow fear to drive us to hate and xenophobia.

These are Christian virtues and I should hope we can practice them in spite of polemics about "Muslims taking over the world."

Blessings to your friends and family, and all persecuted Christians.

Edit- still waiting on what collection you got those Hadith out of :)


#12

I would have to agree in part with the poster Suraya. Islam is primarily concerned with becoming the dominant force, no matter what country or culture it is found in. This is happening in Ireland as well. And it is worrying that the Islamic population has doubled here in the past 10 years. I spoke to Muslims here in Dublin who want to have Sharia Law as Irish state Law.

I sincerely believe that Islam is a false religion and also not a force for good in the world.


#13

Here's the problem. Unlike Christianity, Islam's idea of God's kingdom is to make the world submit to Islamic law, which is very brutal against non-Muslims. Jesus basically said that if people refuse the gospel, God will judge them. In Islam the world has to be made to submit to allah. If you look at the history of Islam you will realize a crusade in the future in inevitable if you want to survive and not be a dhimmi.


#14

[quote="InJesusItrust, post:13, topic:293636"]
Here's the problem. Unlike Christianity, Islam's idea of God's kingdom is to make the world submit to Islamic law, which is very brutal against non-Muslims. Jesus basically said that if people refuse the gospel, God will judge them. In Islam the world has to be made to submit to allah. If you look at the history of Islam you will realize a crusade in the future in inevitable if you want to survive and not be a dhimmi.

[/quote]

I don't think this is necessarily true. I think in order to prevent Islam from spreading in the west we need to strengthen Catholicism in the west while also sending missions to Islamic countries. This is working on some levels as some Islamic countries are becoming gradually more liberal in the enforcement of certain laws regarding evangelisation.


#15

[quote="AdamPeter, post:14, topic:293636"]
I don't think this is necessarily true. I think in order to prevent Islam from spreading in the west we need to strengthen Catholicism in the west while also sending missions to Islamic countries. This is working on some levels as some Islamic countries are becoming gradually more liberal in the enforcement of certain laws regarding evangelisation.

[/quote]

+1 :thumbsup:

A successful mission in the Islamic world will require much greater charity toward Muslims and knowledge/understanding of Islam in all its complexity and diversity. Those things are severely lacking in the West and Christendom in general. I believe JP II got us well on our way, but we have a long way to go.


#16

[quote="IbnFiktur, post:11, topic:293636"]
I have read the Qur'an both in English and in Arabic. I do not believe it is authentic scripture; I am a Catholic Christian.

I am also not trying to put Islam and Christianity on the same level. What I am saying is that we should judge Muslims not on the atrocities committed by SOME believers (our own list of atrocities is far too long to try to do that).

Islam did spread by the sword. Christianity spread in spite of persecution. This is why I believe Christianity to be the true faith, and why I KNOW that we have nothing to fear, from Muslims (who by and large are good, loving people) or anyone else.

What I am urging for is FAITH in God, HOPE which keeps us from falling into fear, and CHARITY because we will not allow fear to drive us to hate and xenophobia.

These are Christian virtues and I should hope we can practice them in spite of polemics about "Muslims taking over the world."

Blessings to your friends and family, and all persecuted Christians.

Edit- still waiting on what collection you got those Hadith out of :)

[/quote]

Now now, I'm not attacking Muslims :tsktsk:. I have many Muslims friends and feel sorry for them for being trapped in that religion where they are restricted on so many things, the biggest being Christ himself (they're not aloud to read the Bible :eek:, though some have probably already done that against the teachings of their religion). One of my friends even wants the Ottoman empire to return to it's former glory :shrug:, and no I'm not joking. Though it's true that it doesn't make him or the other Muslims evil. I know a lot of nice Muslims and I'm not telling people to discriminate against them.

What I want people to know is that islam wants to conquer (Europe being it's most wanted place) which is not even close to a religion of peace, and NO that is NOT xenophobic. I'm Middle-eastern myself. Islam is really an ideology and again, you DON'T know what it is if you haven't lived under it's rules (political islam). You have to understand that I get my knowledge from a place where islam has a firm grip upon, and many suffered under it and there are who still do.

:gopray2: Jesus Christ, son of the beloved Father, please help Muslims turn into Christians and find refuge in you. Please also protect those Christians who are persecuted under islam in the Middle-East and all over the world. :signofcross:


#17

[quote="IbnFiktur, post:15, topic:293636"]
+1 :thumbsup:

A successful mission in the Islamic world will require much greater charity toward Muslims and knowledge/understanding of Islam in all its complexity and diversity. Those things are severely lacking in the West and Christendom in general. I believe JP II got us well on our way, but we have a long way to go.

[/quote]

I would love that to work, but unfortunately I don't think that it's possible since extremists are increasing in number. They would easily kill missionaries. God knows what will happen in the future.


#18

[quote="Suraya, post:16, topic:293636"]
Now now, I'm not attacking Muslims :tsktsk:. I have many Muslims friends and feel sorry for them for being trapped in that religion where they are restricted on so many things, the biggest being Christ himself (they're not aloud to read the Bible :eek:, though some have probably already done that against the teachings of their religion). One of my friends even wants the Ottoman empire to return to it's former glory :shrug:, and no I'm not joking. Though it's true that it doesn't make him or the other Muslims evil. I know a lot of nice Muslims and I'm not telling people to discriminate against them.

What I want people to know is that islam wants to conquer (Europe being it's most wanted place) which is not even close to a religion of peace, and NO that is NOT xenophobic. I'm Middle-eastern myself. Islam is really an ideology and again, you DON'T know what it is if you haven't lived under it's rules (political islam). You have to understand that I get my knowledge from a place where islam has a firm grip upon, and many suffered under it and there are who still do.

:gopray2: Jesus Christ, son of the beloved Father, please help Muslims turn into Christians and find refuge in you. Please also protect those Christians who are persecuted under islam in the Middle-East and all over the world. :signofcross:

[/quote]

You are correct Political Islam (Sharia) is linked with the actual practice of the Religion.

The social aspects are all linked to the practice of the faith which is why it seeks to establish a government wherever it has a population.


#19

[quote="IbnFiktur, post:15, topic:293636"]
+1 :thumbsup:

A successful mission in the Islamic world will require much greater charity toward Muslims and knowledge/understanding of Islam in all its complexity and diversity. Those things are severely lacking in the West and Christendom in general. I believe JP II got us well on our way, but we have a long way to go.

[/quote]

This is true, however I hesitate to confuse charity toward the Islamic world as charity toward the adherents of the faith.

There are many Muslims in Ireland who enjoy the freedoms of western democracy. I would not enjoy the same in their countries. We need to send the message that democratic nations will oppose persecution in Islamic nations.


#20

Suraya,

Thank you for your thoughtful post :) You have an increibly valuable perspective. What concerns me is that you refer to Islam as one thing which means the same thing to all Muslims, and had meant the same thing throughout its history. This is simply not the case.

Interesting historical tidbit... As part of my research on early Islam, I used Syrian Christian sources (among others). These Christians (Jacobites, I'm sure you're familiar with the term) welcomed the Muslims as preferable overlords to the Christian Byzantines.

I know many Muslims, and they all have different takes on the past, present, and future of Islam and Muslims. "Political Islam," then, means something different to different people with different interpretations of Islam. There are, for instance, Islamic modernists as a political force in some Muslim nations.

Touching on the point that AdamPeter made on the previous page... Something that is often overlooked and blatantly ignored in this video is that the "invader's" culture is inevitably transformed by the "conquered people's" culture. I wrote my honors thesis on this topic, though it was on jurisprudence, not culture. Regardless, the fact is that massive Muslim immigration to the West is going to change Islam as much as it will change the West... If not more, given the West's cultural hegemony. If you watch an Arab music video, for instance, you will note the imitation of Western culture in many ways.

The defense of our faith, then, must come from great love and understanding, and a strengthening of our own faith and principles. To this end our enemy is not Islam. It is the clear evil within our own culture of death. This is why the Holy Father seeks dialogue with Islam, not antagonism, and a culture war against modern evils within the West.


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