Muslims and the future of our Nation


#1

[quote=MShahruzJ]15) Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. At the present rate of growth Islam will be the biggest religion in the world by 2023, and U.S.A will be muslim by 2042 and Canada by 2023.
[/quote]

This is actually one of my greatest fears about where democracy will lead us. London is currently about 10% Muslim, and unlike many Christians on this side of the ocean, they regard children as an absolute blessing (and therefore raise large families). Additionally, the Canadian government has promised to accelerate the process of reuniting immigrants’ families (by making them Canadian citizens).

Although I hope that neither of our countries become Muslim, at the current rate, it is entirely possible that they will outnumber us (in Canada) within the next couple of decades. At least one Muslim has successfully run for office in our area, and though I know the gentleman and find him to be a very nice person, I am unsure of his ability (or willingness) to separate his religion from his politics given the opportunity for change that a muslim majority would present.

Now, MShahruzJ (or any other muslims reading this thread, since I strongly suspect that MShahruz knows almost as little about Islam as he does about Christianity), I am curious about a couple of things.

  1. Why do you have so little regard for the Tanakh (Old Testament)? I thought that we were all “people of the book”

  2. Why do you believe that our increasingly-secular society is an accurate representation of Christianity?

[quote=MShahruzJ]16) To become a muslim you only have to say: La Ilaha Illallahu Muhammadur Rasulullah, i.e. There is no other god but God, and Muhammad is the Messenger of God.
[/quote]

To become a (certain brand of) Satanist, you only have to say “Satan, show me the truth”. Making the process easier is certainly a great way to increase membership, but it is most often more difficult to follow the right path.

  • Greg*

#2

[quote=Greg72]…London is currently about 10% Muslim, and unlike many Christians on this side of the ocean, they regard children as an absolute blessing (and therefore raise large families).
[/quote]

God considers them a blessing too! Read Scripture. The Catholic Church has still remained loyal to God even in the USA.

…Although I hope that neither of our countries become Muslim, at the current rate, it is entirely possible that they will outnumber us (in Canada) within the next couple of decades.

Is that so bad? Look at what has happened in the USA today. We murder more babies each year then Hitler could gas helpless people. This doesn’t even count the baies murdered by the pill and IUD’s Homosexuals becomming role models for our children. Ordained Protestant homosexual clergy. Etc… This is where the reformation has taken the USA.

God promised those Faithfull to Him with Hope for salvation a great reward. He said His body, His Church would be persecuted. Stay loyal to Jesus, stay loyal to His body His Catholic Church, endure in Hope until the end. Do not worry, Christ is on your side. He saw what will happen and warned us about it. He gave us His Church to lead us.

God bless,


#3

[quote=Greg72]This is actually one of my greatest fears about where democracy will lead us. London is currently about 10% Muslim, and unlike many Christians on this side of the ocean, they regard children as an absolute blessing (and therefore raise large families). Additionally, the Canadian government has promised to accelerate the process of reuniting immigrants’ families (by making them Canadian citizens).

Although I hope that neither of our countries become Muslim, at the current rate, it is entirely possible that they will outnumber us (in Canada) within the next couple of decades. At least one Muslim has successfully run for office in our area, and though I know the gentleman and find him to be a very nice person, I am unsure of his ability (or willingness) to separate his religion from his politics given the opportunity for change that a muslim majority would present.

Now, MShahruzJ (or any other muslims reading this thread, since I strongly suspect that MShahruz knows almost as little about Islam as he does about Christianity), I am curious about a couple of things.

  1. Why do you have so little regard for the Tanakh (Old Testament)? I thought that we were all “people of the book”

  2. Why do you believe that our increasingly-secular society is an accurate representation of Christianity?

To become a (certain brand of) Satanist, you only have to say “Satan, show me the truth”. Making the process easier is certainly a great way to increase membership, but it is most often more difficult to follow the right path.

  • Greg*

I really hope them statistics wont be correct…i want catholicism to grow more
[/quote]


#4

I am optmistic, we have the truth, only we have to spread and speak about the truth of islam, anymore. But don´t worry, we will change the world.


#5

Hi Everyone,

I’m a Muslim and new to the forum. I wanted to comment on these two questions:

“1. Why do you have so little regard for the Tanakh (Old Testament)? I thought that we were all “people of the book””

Actually the Tanakh is held in esteem By Muslims. The point though is that we believe that it has been changed with time. Hence only the Quran is the unchanged word of God, since its revelation to man.

  1. Why do you believe that our increasingly-secular society is an accurate representation of Christianity?"

I don’t! I agree that most of the world is going secular, not just America.

The problem is when religious people go along with secular nations, and agree with their policies.

Munawar
munawar@whyislam.org


#6

[quote=Munawar]“1. Why do you have so little regard for the Tanakh (Old Testament)? I thought that we were all “people of the book””

Actually the Tanakh is held in esteem By Muslims. The point though is that we believe that it has been changed with time. Hence only the Quran is the unchanged word of God, since its revelation to man.
[/quote]

Okay, now here’s my question… do you have any evidence for believing the old testament was ever corrupted, or do you just believe it because the Koran says so?


#7

[quote=Munawar]Hi Everyone,

I’m a Muslim and new to the forum. I wanted to comment on these two questions:

“1. Why do you have so little regard for the Tanakh (Old Testament)? I thought that we were all “people of the book””

Actually the Tanakh is held in esteem By Muslims. The point though is that we believe that it has been changed with time. Hence only the Quran is the unchanged word of God, since its revelation to man.

  1. Why do you believe that our increasingly-secular society is an accurate representation of Christianity?"

I don’t! I agree that most of the world is going secular, not just America.

The problem is when religious people go along with secular nations, and agree with their policies.

Munawar
[email=“munawar@whyislam.org
[/QUOTE]I”]munawar@whyislam.org
[/quote]

I[/email] for one would like to thankyou for being nice:) We had a rather unpleasent experience and I appreciate you being respectful of us.God Bless,Lisa


#8

[quote=exoflare]Okay, now here’s my question… do you have any evidence for believing the old testament was ever corrupted, or do you just believe it because the Koran says so?
[/quote]

Hi Exoflare,

Of course, the biggest reason Muslims believe the OT and NT have been corrupted is because God says so.

But at a material level there are two issues:

  1. The OT and NT contain syntactical errors.
  2. No originals of either book remains. There is no way to know, if this is what the disciples recorded, or what Moses (and others) stated.

Munawar


#9

[quote=exoflare]Okay, now here’s my question… do you have any evidence for believing the old testament was ever corrupted, or do you just believe it because the Koran says so?
[/quote]

Hey Exoflare,

There’s plenty of objective evidence for Old Testament corruption. The four sources, JEDP, the Pentateuch was compiled from, I’d consider such an example.

Thus, my answer would be that we believe that both because objective evidence exists, and because the Qur’an says so as well.

I’m a Muslim as well, and came to this forum at the invitation of flameburn623. I encourage any of you with questions about Islam to visit the forum at whyislam.org/forum.


#10

[quote=Munawar]Hi Exoflare,

Of course, the biggest reason Muslims believe the OT and NT have been corrupted is because God says so.

But at a material level there are two issues:

  1. The OT and NT contain syntactical errors.
  2. No originals of either book remains. There is no way to know is this is exactly what the disciples recorded, or what Moses (and others) stated.

Munawar
[/quote]

Okay, so basically then, you believe the OT has been corrupted because the Koran says so. (the NT is a completely different issue for later) As for the other two issues, here’s my problem:

  1. How do “syntactical errors” prove whether or not the substance of any book is true?

  2. The “original” copy of the Koran (or the fragments of it that were first written down) are no longer in existence either. How can we be sure then, that it was exactly what Muhammed recorded?


#11

[quote=Shenango]Hey Exoflare,

There’s plenty of objective evidence for Old Testament corruption. The four sources, JEDP, the Pentateuch was compiled from, I’d consider such an example.

Thus, my answer would be that we believe that both because objective evidence exists, and because the Qur’an says so as well.

I’m a Muslim as well, and came to this forum at the invitation of flameburn623. I encourage any of you with questions about Islam to visit the forum at whyislam.org/forum.
[/quote]

We don’t even claim that everything in the Pentateuch was necessarily written by Moses, though. It was never a dogma to begin with. Which beliefs of ours, exactly, do the existence of multiple sources disprove?


#12

There are some Christians who state that the Bible is the unchanged word of God. So I put that “syntactical” thing in there for them.

Whether the Quran is original or not, has little to do with the lack of an original of the OT.

I am willing to go into the details of the original Qurans if you wish.

Munawar


#13

[quote=Munawar]Whether the Quran is original or not, has little to do with the lack of an original of the OT.
[/quote]

You’re right, they have little to do with each other. The point is that you take a property that both the Bible and the Quran share in common, and yet it only disproves the Bible but has no bearing on the authenticity of the Quran. We in the business call this a “double standard.”


#14

[quote=Munawar]Hi Exoflare,

Of course, the biggest reason Muslims believe the OT and NT have been corrupted is because God says so.

But at a material level there are two issues:

  1. The OT and NT contain syntactical errors.
  2. No originals of either book remains. There is no way to know, if this is what the disciples recorded, or what Moses (and others) stated.

Munawar
[/quote]

Hello Munawar, I think you are the same guy suspended here before.
Your Quran is corrupted not the Bible.

Can you prove the Quran is the same?, not you cant, because Othman bin Affan burned the 12 Masahef they got, and wrote another one, that has 276 verses with NO witnesses, and 382 with 1 witness, and the rest with 2 witneses, while adultery needs 4 male witnesses , so abviously the Quran is not a priority as I see.
So history wise, the Bible is proven to be 100% original, but the Quran is not, since you do not have any copies from that era. It was also with no dots and Tashkeel, so you cant read it anyway, I can , you cant.
In Christ,
selvaraj


#15

[quote=Malachi4U]Is that so bad?
[/quote]

As a woman, I would have to say, “Yes!” It would not be good to have a Muslim U.S.A.! While men would retain their accustomed lifestyle, things would change dramatically for women and girls here - and in my opinion and observation from having experienced Islam first hand in western Europe - it would not be for the better. Please consider the brutal treatment of women and girls (who by the way I am **not **so sure are regarded as a blessing the way male offspring are) in predominantly Muslim countries before concurring that it wouldn’t “be so bad” to have a Muslim U.S. Is that really what you want for your wife, mother, sister(s) and daughter(s)?


#16

I worked with a Muslim woman from Albania. She was going back to visit her family and was not looking forward to not being able to drive. Can you imagine living that way here? No one would accept that.


#17

[quote=exoflare]Which beliefs of ours, exactly, do the existence of multiple sources disprove?
[/quote]

Hey exoflare,

I’m not saying multiple sources necessarily disprove anything, but you can’t know which account of the Great Flood (either J or P) is the correct one, if either one is.

[quote=exoflare]You’re right, they have little to do with each other. The point is that you take a property that both the Bible and the Quran share in common, and yet it only disproves the Bible but has no bearing on the authenticity of the Quran. We in the business call this a “double standard.”
[/quote]

Munawar is speaking from a Muslim perspective, from where he already holds the Qur’an to be the literal Word of God, and thus that’s his standard of judgement. You’re free to hold yours as well.


#18

[quote=selvaraj]Your Quran is corrupted not the Bible.
[/quote]

A very intelligent assessment.

So history wise, the Bible is proven to be 100% original, but the Quran is not

Again, very mature.

It was also with no dots and Tashkeel, so you cant read it anyway, I can , you cant.

I can read it with no dots or tashkeel. How do you like that? :smiley:

In Christ,
selvaraj

In yourself rather than Christ (PBUH). I somehow doubt Christ (PBUH) would be seething as you are right now.


#19

:dancing:Why can’t we be friends, why can’t we be friends…:dancing:


#20

[quote=FuzzyBunny116]:dancing:Why can’t we be friends, why can’t we be friends…:dancing:
[/quote]

The problem is that while Muslims are rushing into the western Christian nations, settling, building mosques, evangelising, demanding freedom of religion and dress, and other things…

In Muslim majority countries the Christians are being persecuted and bombed and threatened and being driven out. Building churches and converting muslims is forbidden. Try and criticize the Muslim scriptures in any muslim land, and you’ll end up dead or in hiding, running for your life.

This is producing a ratchet where Muslims increase in Christian lands while driving out Christians in their own lands. 50 years ago Algeria had 2.5 million Catholics. Now there are barely 2,000. France had very few Muslims, now there are Millions. If that continues much longer we’ll all be living under Muslim rule in a few decades.

I’m beginning to believe that Muslim rights in the West need to be dependent on Christian rights to practice, build churches and evangelise openly and convert, being enforced in Muslim nations.


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