Muslims: Jesus and the Great Deception

That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

—Qur’an, sura 4 (An-Nisa) ayat 157-158

Based upon this passage from the Qur’an, it is common for Muslims to argue that Jesus did not really die on the cross; instead, Allah made Jesus appear to be dead even though he wasn’t. (Another variation is that someone who merely looked like Jesus was crucified while Allah took Jesus away.)

Michael Licona asks the following questions:

“Wouldn’t this make Allah a deceiver? We could understand it if he deceived his enemies who were trying to kill Jesus. But since we can know historically that Jesus’ disciples sincerely believed that he had been killed and then his corpse had been transformed into an immortal body, this makes God a deceiver of his followers as well. If Jesus never clarified matters with his disciples, then he deceived them, too. Why would you deceive your followers if you knew this was going to spawn a new but false religion? And if God deceived his first-century followers, whom the Qur’an refers to as ‘Muslims,’ then how can today’s Muslims be confident that he is not deceiving them now?”

:shrug:

One of the numerous "issues " with a religion which came into existence in the late 500s.

Well I’ve heard that apparently non of the disciples ran away. I suppose that could be a “proof” that they knew that Jesus just looked like he died.

MJ

Hmm. I wasn’t aware that The Passover Plot was written in the 600s.

More seriously, I’m still amazed at the people, both non-Christian theistic and atheistic, who waste time coming up with these half-baked explanations and attempts to avoid the obvious truth, that Jesus was the Son of God and was exactly whom He said He was. Why not just accept that, and move on?

Christianity was the foremost Theistic religion then. Naturally some took exception to it. Just my guess.

More seriously, I’m still amazed at the people, both non-Christian theistic and atheistic, who waste time coming up with these half-baked explanations and attempts to avoid the obvious truth, that Jesus was the Son of God and was exactly whom He said He was. Why not just accept that, and move on?

As my mother tells me when I get frustrated with those who reject Christ and God “atleast they mention the Lord’s name because they actually know there is something in it deep inside”. But let God’s judgement into peoples hearts decide.

We meanwhile, proclaim the Risen Lord, come what may.

MJ

Mr. Licona’s view is a hypothetical explaination of a hypothetical situation. I will not try to add credence to what is a hypothtical situation (i.e. Allah made someone look like Jesus to die on the cross).

Yes, Muslims believe that Jesus did not die on the cross but God raised him up unto Himself, but whether Jesus was killed on the cross or no, it does not change anything of the truth that Jesus was not there anymore. However, the deception happened when someone claimed later that Jesus came back to life after 3 days and that God, the All-Just let him die for our sins so that we could be saved!
On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Quran 2:286)

Jesus, the Prophet of God did never claim to be god, and he was a worshiper of God, a creation of God.

And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah’?” He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, ‘worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord’; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things. “If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise.” (Quran 5:116-118)

If you Christians really believe that Jesus is god, how could you worship a god who dies?
And if Jesus was dead and buried for 3 days, how could you equalize him with God Almighty the Ever-Living?

Firstly it MUST be understood, there are no such thing as Christians unless Christ was (and is) God. Secondly, you have to trace Jesus’ existence from those who proclaim him as God (Emmanuel) “God with us”.

As far as I am aware Islam depends on the Quran about Jesus. How far back can you trace Islam’s knowledge of Jesus (son of Mary) before the Quran?

MJ

Did Jesus die on the cross?

Did Jesus claim to be God? The Bible clearly teaches that He did.

1. Jesus claimed the Divine Name (‘I AM’)

Exodus 3:14
13 Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?” 14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” 15 God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you’: this is my name for ever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.

John 8:58
53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you claim to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say that he is your God. 55 But you have not known him; I know him. If I said, I do not know him, I should be a liar like you; but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it and was glad.” 57 The Jews then said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple.

Why did the Jews want to stone Jesus if they did not believe that He was claiming to be God?

2. Jesus claimed to be the Son of God and equal to God.

John 5:18
16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

3. Jesus claimed to be the First and the Last – a Title Reserved for God Alone

Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me.”

Revelation 1:17-18
“Do not be afraid; I [Jesus] am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.”

Would a mere prophet claim to be the “First and the Last”?

4. Jesus claimed to be Truth – not just to proclaim the truth.

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.

  1. Jesus claimed to share in Divine Glory

In the Old Testament, we find that Yahweh will not share his glory with anyone.

Isaiah 42:8
“I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another.” (Cf. Isaiah 48:11—“My glory I will not give to another.”)

Yet Jesus claimed, not only that he would be glorified with the Father, but that he had glory with the Father before the world was created!

John 17:5
“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”

How can anyone see this as anything other than a claim to deity?

6. Jesus claimed to be the Messiah and the Son of God Before the Sanhedrin

Daniel 7:13-14
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Daniel prophesied that the Son of Man would be worshiped as God.

Mark 14:61-65
61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” 63 The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64 “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?” They all condemned him as worthy of death.

Replying to the High Priest at His trial before the Sanhedrin, Jesus quoted the Daniel and applied this prophecy to Himself.

(cont.)

Mohammed never taught the “doctrine of tahrif (corruption)” of the Injil (Gospel). In fact, he taught:

[LIST=1]
*]Sura 16:43 “The Apostles We sent before you were but men whom We inspired with revelations and with scriptures. Ask the People of the Book, if you doubt this.”
*]Sura 2:75 tells us that the Torah is “the Word of God.”
*]Sura 10:62-64: “The servants of God have nothing to fear or to regret. Those that have faith and keep from evil shall rejoice both in this world and in the hereafter; the Word of God shall never change. That is the supreme triumph.”
*]Sura 6:34 tells us “none can alter the words of Allah,” yet, the “Doctrine of Tahrif” says, in essence, “the Word of God” was corrupted by Jews and Christians. This simply does not work here. Moreover, Muslims teach a “doctrine of Naskh” as well. “Naskh” is Arabic for “abrogation.” It states later “revelations” in the Koran can “abrogate” earlier ones. But if the “word of God” cannot change, how can there be “abrogation?”
*]The original “Gospel” of Jesus Christ, or Injil, is a revelation from God according to Sura 5:46, 66, 68, and 70.
*]Jesus was a prophet and his words should be believed by Muslims (Sura 4:171; 5:77). Thus, Christians and Muslims were obligated to accept the “Gospel” of Mohammed’s day, according to the Qur’an. In fact, Sura 10:94 even says, “If thou [Mohammed] wert in doubt as to what We have revealed Unto thee, then ask those Who have been reading The Book [the Bible] from before thee; The truth hath indeed come To thee from thy Lord; So be in no wise Of those who doubt.”
[/LIST]

In light of the contradictions between the Bible and the Qur’an, the question to be asked is:

Why would I accept the Qur’an which tells me to listen to the Torah, the Gospel, and even the entire Bible, when the Qur’an so blatantly contradicts the Bible? :shrug:

I love your response. I just don’t understand why people try to change Christianity. Either believe in it or go make up your our religion, but don’t try to change Christianity.

But where did the Disciples go after Jesus’s disappearance? Citing historical evidence from from 1st a 2nd Century AD can you please explain what the Disciples of Jesus believed and what the Disciples of the Disciples believed?

From all the verses of the Bible that you put, there is nowhere that Jesus said “I am god”!
Why didn’t Jesus say clearly “I am your god, worship me”!

I could also list evidences from the Bible that Jesus is not god.

John 14:28 "You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Matthew 24:36 "**But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
**

Luke 22:70 They all asked, “Are you then the Son of God?” He replied, "You say that I am."

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

John 17:3 ‘that they might know you, **the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.’
**

Matthew 26:39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.

Jesus even prayed the way Muslims pray!
I can go on with many other verses in the Bible that clearly state that Jesus is not god.

There were so many attempts to kill the Prophets of God even though they did not claim divinity! E.g., there were attempts to kill Prophet Moses and Prophet Mohammed too.

God says in the Quran:

Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. (Quran 5:47)

If Christians judged with the teachings of the Gospel, it would have led them to Islam because Prophet Jesus did inform of a Prophet to come after him. The teaching of the Gospel is confirming the Torah, and the Quran is confirming the other scriptures sent before.

To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, (Quran 5:48)

The message of God is one. He sent the Prophets to guide people to the One God. However, the teaching of the Oneness of God has changed because people did change the scriptures by hiding some, and changing some truth.

The Quran does mention that the people of the book did change their book and did not follow their own teachings.

Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:“This is from Allah,” to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (Quran 2:79)

There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, “That is from Allah,” but it is not from Allah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it! (Quran 3:78)

Regarding this verse in the Quran:

there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. (Quran 6:34)

Changing the words of God in the passage means that one cannot change what He has promised would occur. Anyone could pick the Quran and change a text, but that does not change the original text that is with God.

So Randy Carson, if you have read the Quran and you still do not believe it is from God, who do you think is the author of Quran?

If he said that, he’ll just be a nutcase and no one would take him seriously. And I’ll show you an example of when the took him seriously as equating God with himself.

John 8 48 The Jews answered him, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. 50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.” 52

The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’ 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’[a] 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”** 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

You have to keep in mind that the Bible (in particular the New Testament) didn’t exist till the Church put it together. The Church that Jesus started.

I could also list evidences from the Bible that Jesus is not god.

Fine. Let’s see how you do it. Im not going to go into so much detail but I’ll start from what you say here:

John 14:28 "You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

What about using the verses before that first?

24** Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. **These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name****, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you.** I do not give to you as the world gives**. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

Then verse 28. This means Jesus is showing he has** authority** but speaking to his disciples while on earth as a human, ** the father is greater**. This is where the Doctrine of the Incarnation is employed. That means as far as Jesus’ Human Nature is concerned, the Son is less than the Father.

Now let’s move on:

29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30 I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, 31 but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.

Matthew 24:36 "**But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
**

Again what you’ve done here what we call “cherry picking”. Without following the context of the words of Jesus Himself before and after above verse. Are you sure you want to put words in His mouth? This is not a very good idea and I don’t want to question your motives here and I pray you are willing to learn what the Church as taught and continues to teach for 2000 years.

With regards to the Quran, perhaps you will need to understand the orthodox Christian teachings first which came long before the Quran.

MJ**

In the context of Jewish society, he did. You just don’t see it because you are not Jewish.

Jesus claimed to be the Messiah and the Son of God Before the Sanhedrin

Daniel 7:13-14
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Daniel prophesied that the Son of Man would be worshiped as God.

Mark 14:61-65
61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” 63 The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64 “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?” They all condemned him as worthy of death.

Replying to the High Priest at His trial before the Sanhedrin, Jesus quoted Daniel and applied this prophecy to Himself.

Jesus didn’t just say, “Hey, I’m God”; he went further than that and applied a messianic prophecy to himself. IOW, he’s not just testifying on his own behalf; he’s asserting that the prophet Daniel had testified about him, also.

For the Jews, that’s about as plain as it could get. That’s why they condemned him as a blasphemer and sought his execution from Pilate.

I can go on with many other verses in the Bible that clearly state that Jesus is not god.

No, you can go on with verses which clearly state that Jesus is not the Father…to which I would say, “Amen!” because Jesus is the second person of the Trinity…not the first.

If Christians judged with the teachings of the Gospel, it would have led them to Islam because Prophet Jesus did inform of a Prophet to come after him.

Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit, the parakletos (Greek), who is the third person of the Holy Trinity, and this happened initially at Pentecost (cf. Acts 1).

The teaching of the Gospel is confirming the Torah, and the Quran is confirming the other scriptures sent before.

If the Qur’an confirms the Gospel, then I would expect to see ISIS loving others and turning the other cheek as the Christian gospel teaches. But that’s not what they have read in the Qur’an, is it? :nope:

+++

But you have not really addressed the problem of my OP which is why Allah allowed Jesus’ own followers to be deceived into thinking that Jesus had died and risen.

There are false prophets in the Torah and in more recent times…but I don’t recall an example of Allah establishing a true prophet who gathered disciples and taught them to worship God correctly only to deceive into forming a false religion later.

Do you?

The verse is very clear, as simple as this: Jesus is not all-knowing. God is All-Knowing.
Jesus is not god!

How did the Crusades read the Gospel then?
Let’s not judge our faiths based on the acts of some groups who are doing wrong in the name of the religion!

I did reply to this, and I don’t see a problem here! Whether Jesus was crucified or God raised him up unto Himself, this will not change anything of the fact that Jesus was not there anymore. You could see that this is actually a mercy from God that He chose to raise Jesus, His Prophet and beloved servant.

You did not answer my below question:

He already explained he will be Glorified. My feeling Is that perhaps you read what only you want to hear from the Gospeis. Btw You do know Christians believe that God cannot be mocked so we are 100% certain what Jesus taught and because we can trace his own words and words of his disciples who were with him.

MJ

Amongst the Muslims I’ve interacted with there is always one of two things going on; 1) Ignorance of the Trinity or 2) Misunderstanding of the Trinity.

Trinity; God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. One God (echad).

The Father is not the Son is not the Holy Spirit.

The Father Himself tells us He has a begotten Son, either you believe God or not. It is recorded in the Koran that Allah has said He has no begotten Son. There is truth and there is lie, it’s up to us to discover which is which. The older and more accurate manuscripts say God has a begotten Son, the evidence is that Jesus Christ is indeed God the Son crucified, buried, and Who arose 3 days later. And He did that out of love for us.

The Lord God is Love, and love implies relationship, the Trinity is the perfect relationship. I pray the Love of God is shed abroad in the hearts and minds of men and that they turn to Him and worship Him in love and in truth. Jesus did indeed die on that cross, and the Father did not lie in that, He did not deceive His beloved disciples, the Lord is not a deceiver nor a liar.

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