Muslims, Jews and the trinity


#1

How would a Muslim or a Jew interpret Gen1:24 where God says

"Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth all kinds of living creatures: cattle, creeping things, and wild animals of all kinds.” And so it happened."
Of course as a christian i would say that it is the trinity. I am not sure what the Jewish and Islamic picutres of God are but I would like to hear what their interpretation of this verse would be.

For Muslims, I am assuming that they believe in the same creation story.


#2

Not sure how that citation proves the Trinity?


#3

oops wrong quote

i meant vs26

Then God said: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness


#4

Two other interpretations I have read…

  1. God spoke of his plan that would require the colaboration of his angels …hence “us”

  2. In Arab/Jewish culture one can talk of himself in the plural to show unity of mission/standing or the like


#5

So how did angels help in creating man? Where is that in the bible?

And as to speaking in the plural to show unity of mission or standing—unless this depends on the angels somehow being a partner to creation, this seems to confirm the idea of the Trinity because I think you would need more than one to be united.


#6

I don’t know is just what you will get from JW being that they believe Jesus was Michael the archangel

And as to speaking in the plural to show unity of mission or standing—unless this depends on the angels somehow being a partner to creation, this seems to confirm the idea of the Trinity because I think you would need more than one to be united.

The way I understood this is that the angels are in communion with God in his creative plan. They do not create as such but are in agreement with God in his creation and hence are not opposed to God’s proposal.


#7

Hi all!

Well, I’ve heard 3 explanations.

First, there is the Majesticatus Pluralis (i.e. the “Royal We”).

Our Sages also teach that by saying “Let us…” God was speaking to/consulting the angelic host (see I Kings 22:20-23, Isaiah 6:8, note the use of “us”, Job 1:6-12). God certainly does not need the angels’ help or advice but He speaks to them out of courtesy and modesty. (Our Sages deduce from this that a great person should always act humbly and consult those lower than him/her.) One of our Sages says that God thus “consulted” the angels at this stage because they were jealous of man, that man and not they would be the pinnacle of creation.

Our Sages offer another explanation. They note that in 1:11, God said, “Let the earth put forth grass…” and in 1:24, He said “Let the earth bring forth the living creature…” Thus, in 1:26, our Sages suggest that God was speaking to the earth when He said, “Let us make man…” In effect, He said to the earth: Let us be partners in making man. I will provide the soul and you will provide the body. When the man dies, we will each reclaim our respective parts. (See Ecclesiastes 12:7, “And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns unto God who gave it.”) (Note: Our Sages are offering homilies & parables here, the value of which is in the ideas that they teach.)

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv :wave:


#8

“Us” = royal plural… in the Quran (yes i know its from the Bible) God never refers to Himself as I. its always “We” or “Us”


#9

wow thanks for that. I really liked the last one with God and Earth partnering to create man! God seams to always create something then cooperate with it. He never seems to make his subjects submit by force.


#10

One problem concerning this verse referring to angels is that God also says “after our image” and “after our likeness”. Angels don’t have the nature of God. This is just one of many verses appealing to the trinity.


#11

Im going to stir the water a bit here, but neither do we have the nature of God but are still made in his image and likeness. So as a hypothetical God could create another creature in the image and likeness of God&man?


#12

HOw on earth is that verse about the trinity? I never heard that before. You mean because it mentions three things that God commands the earth to bring forth? To each his own.


#13

ok. ignore my prior post. :slight_smile:

What Stillsmallvoice said.


#14

It may not even mean “let us”. In Indo-European languages there’s a plural connotation to the cohortative mood (“let’s do that”), but there isn’t in all languages. Sumerian, for instance, and Japanese and Korean (unrelated agglutinating languages), simply use an entirely separate particle. In Sumerian, I believe the cohortative was also used for “May such-and-such happen,” like May God smile upon you, etc. Japanese, and I believe Korean, uses the “Let’s” construction for a polite imperative, which is also done in English with small children (“Oh, let’s not pull the kitty’s tail”).

So, how about Hebrew, does anyone know? Is there a plural connotation to that construction? Is there that construction, or do you use an idiom, like “let’s”?


#15

what is the nature of God and how do you know angels don’t have it?
When you read the next verse, “And God created man in His image” (Genesis 1:27)," it is clear that there is not "mulitple God or trinity (from a Jewish perspective). If “let us make man” indicates a numerical plurality, it would be followed in the next verse by, “And they created man in their image.” A better explanation is the “Royal We” that someone mentioned earlier. (See, i.e., (2 Samuel 16:20 and Ezra 4:16-19).

The above info is on the Jew’s For Judaism website, which I am sure everyone here is familar with by now.


#16

One thing about the Trinity that is not a mystery is its origins. The doctrine came from the Catholic Church around 381 CE – long after the Gospels were written, which explains why it was unkown to whoever wrote the New Testament. At least that is when it was accepted as doctrine. The Jews never believed in a Trinity, and the church adopted it under pressure from its most pagan segments of the Catholic Church.

IMO, it is a losing battle to try and prove this fourth century doctrine to Jews who follow a monotheistic Torah.

BTW, the word Elohim is also used to refer to Moses (Ex. 7:1). No one, after reading this verse, mistakenly believes Moses was more than one.

For Christian Support that the use of “Elohim” does not refer to a trinity, read the following commentary from the author of the “New INternational Version Study Bible”:

“God created. The Hebrew noun Elohim is plural but the verb is singular, a normal usage in the OT when reference is to the one true God. This use of the plural expresses intensification rather than number and has been called the plural of majesty, or of potentiality.” (p. 6.)

There’s more explanation, but this should cover it.

For more detail, outreachjudaism.org/nameofgod.html


#17

the angels did not help at all. God was being polite in including the lesser in the decision making process. If we read the very next verse it is clear that GOd and God alone creates man.

Many Christian bibles in their commentary acknowledge that this is not a reference to the trinity.


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