I think she wants to say that some groups that uses violence may use this oppertunity to show the muslim masses that this is hwo the western world think of them , and thus increase the sense of alienation and encourages extremism that cxan lead to violence.
The problem as i see it is not from the statement itself but from how much high the figure that these statements came from . Even of they were quoted.
I doint think this was a wise statement at a wise time. However i respect his freedom of speach. But he is definetly different than the most beloved pope. His predecessor. John Paul the second.
I caught the obvious irony as well. Calling muslims intolerant only encourages them to react violently, thus proving the original statement.
Right now, I can’t help but be pleased with the stark contrast between Christianity (a religion of reason and revelation) and Islam (a religion of barbarism): The Pope addresses an audience of intellectuals peacefully at a University about the merits of Christianity, while Muslim leaders rant at mobs threatening violence in the name of Islam. I’m sure many people around the globe are making up their minds about which religion they would prefer for themselves given the choice, provided they aren’t being forced by threat to become a muslim.
No doubt my pleasure will be short lived in the coming days as we see churches being burned, priests being executed, nuns being raped and Christians being slaughtered at the hands of muslims all in the name of some idol named “Allah” and a false “religion of peace” called Islam.
The soloution is to listen to him. Instead of accusing him of barbarism and shying away. Just hear what he has to say and if he is asking for somthing you wouldnt ask for yourself as a right then walk away.
I am sure many people ask here and they dont expect or want muslims to answer. Sadly!
You are saying the spokesperson for Islam believes that if some people call Islam a ‘violent religion’ (NB–this was NOT what was said by Benedict, but let’s take it even that the Muslims ‘perceive’ that this was what the quote meant), this will lead to a sort of ‘pre-emptive strike’ against Muslims.
Thing is, in the last 15 years or so (actually for hundreds of years, but I’ll tie it first simply to the last 15 as representing ‘contemporary’ society), there have been literally hundreds of violent attacks by Muslims on others (other Muslims, Christians, non-Christians). There have been virtually NO attacks on Muslims by Christians, non-Christians etc. No preemptive strikes. At most there is heightened tension; at worst there was a case in Britain where an innocent person happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, but this could have happened even if he had been a NON Muslim but this was not done as a ‘kill the infidel’ attack. Even the current situation in Iraq was not made on ‘Muslims’ but was made to FREE the Muslims AND non-Muslims from a man who was responsible for much death and destruction.
By contrast, we have seen church bombings by Muslims, we have seen riots, we have seen rapes, torture, and we have seen innocent people decapitated and savagely mutilated; and these actions were definitely done to attack non Muslims, and NOT to 'defend themselves."
The Crusades (to go back a bit further) were not performed BY Christians ON ‘peaceful Muslims’ but were performed to protect the Jews, Christians, and non-Muslims who were being forcibly overcome by Muslims on a territorial rampage. Lest we forget, even the most venal Crusader (and there were remarkably few compared to the ‘average’ crusader, just as today in the armed forces there are remarkably few jingoists, with the majority of the troops being there simply to HELP OTHERS) was doing a DEFENSIVE maneuver. The original call was “Help, help for the Holy Sepulcre” (meaning, defending the city of Jerusalem and making it available for ALL faiths), it was not “DEATH to the INFIDEL MUSLIMS”.
That Muslim sensitivities are so tender and their reactions so violent is not to be blamed by the West’s ‘intolerance’ but on the free choice of the Muslim himself or herself to take offense and to retaliate. For those who DO react as reasonable, rational humans I have nothing but respect. For those who do not, I have pity.
The pope was delivering a speech at a university and teaching; teaching is part of his role. He wasn’t working to inflame anyone to act with violence against any one else.
In terms of treating others as I would have them treat me, well, I expect that I won’t agree with everything a Muslim teacher says, in part because I am not Muslim. I would not take offense at the disagreement. I do get upset when I hear people mischaracterize what Catholics believe, but I would disagree with anyone who decided that a violent response was warranted.
And I believe that the Media often portrays the more exciting responses in order to generate interest. I am curious as to what most Muslims think. That is one reason that I read this thread although I don’t usually visit this topic board.
Teaching is the right for everybody. But you have to understand that the Pope is also a major Mega Political and religious figure. His views are almost doctrines. Quotes from Popes are usual for every catholic today. When a pope Quotes somebody he usually agrees with his views . Now the pope wants to Critisize Islam he could have done that by giving this task to the regular Catholic teachers at the shcool. Where the comments do not have the weight of the pope behind them . But If the comments goes directly from the pope and is headed towards the head of the second largest religion on earth, with descriptions of evil and inhumane, then what did you leave for dialougue?
You niether left a higher authority to arbitrate to nor your accusations were directed towards a minor figure in Islam .
The comments came in a collision fashion. From the head of the church to the head of a major faith. I know the pope di dit as a quote. But he didnt say he disagreed with the Quote either.
So what did we leave the muslims to think? I mean … we are not stupid. It simply means that the pope endorses this view regarding our religion. Which is ofcourse his right.
But the crux is that his views were public , which means that whatever Insulting views he had about the Muslim faith and founder is out on public . Sadly this leaves no where for Dialougue.
what do u expect me to dialougue with the pope about if he insulted my Prophet like that ?
As for condemning violent responses i do agree with you totally on that . But i dont understand why Voices that condemn violence is minimized and the small voice of violence is maximized.
Do people really think that Islam would gain anything by burning an embassy or attacking a church with a Molotov cocktail?
This happens to Mosques in America all the time and Muslims never blamed christianity for it.
Yes we have some idiots who dont even know the difference between an Orthodox church and a catholic church and they are idiots enough to think that if they are violent then they would achieve anything .
But what exactlly the point from blaming all muslims or islam for that . What do u expect to achieve? What do u expect Muslims to do that they are not doing?
Hate and blindness is in every faith . Hitler persecuted Jehovas witness and jews with numbers far more gigantec than any muslim violent idiot could imagine. Now you would reply to me and say that Hitler could not be a true christian. Then why do u blame Islam for someone whom the majority of muslims think is not a true muslim?
what amazes me really is the short sight that peopel have. Islam is not communism.
Islam is far from what the media portrays to be somthing that irritates it adherents. Its a refuge for them . And somthing they derive Inspiration from. Yes we are expeosed to Christianity and we are not ignorant about christianity . I have Bibles at home and i have read many parts of the NT . We have churches all over in My country and in my building i have 4 families out of 12 to be coptic Orthodox practicing Christians.
What i ma trying to say is that Islam is not a failed idiology like communism. It is a faith and people believe in it. It doiesnt deprive them from riding a ferrari or wearing blue jeans or watching a theatre play or having a private business. It will not collapse by the soft power of commercialism and niether military power will do anything but increase people holding on to the faith.
5th of the world is Muslim. They are not going any where soon. My idiea is that we should all live in peace and justice. I think Islam became the new enemy after communism.
I want honest christians to sit and listen to honest and sincere grieviances of the muslim world. and try to take radical measures to lift injusticeand occupation and support for dictatorships and foreign interference.
I think Sincere and honest listening with an underlying concept of accepting for others what i accept for myself is the only way to erase any animosity.
I’m not adept at including multiple excerpts, so I had to settle for using “…” to show where I left out parts of your reply. My apologies if it’s confusing or if I missed any key points.
When you say that the comments were from the pope to the head of your faith, I’m not sure I understand. The pope was speaking to an academic group at a university. It wasn’t a direct address to any particular person. The style of speech would have been different.
With regard to why there isn’t much coverage of those who condemn the recent violent acts, I can’t help much. I have been posting (see my last post on this thread) that the media might be focusing on the more “exciting” stories and not giving the full picture - certainly wouldn’t be the first time. I share your frustration with this and I can’t believe all Muslims agree with the response of some people. I agree with you that rational Muslims would not see any value in burning embassies and churches over a speech. I absolutely don’t blame all Muslims.
I’m glad you took the time to say that violence won’t achieve anything. I believe that more people like you exist, it’s nice to hear about it.
While the majority of Muslims might not think that the ones calling for violence are true Muslims, since many of those calling for violence have religious titles and positions, it looks bad. We probably disagree on what the pope’s words meant, but I agree that because he said them, by virtue of his position the words hold greater weight. Well, we seem to agree that some Muslim religious leaders are calling for bad things to happen. There are Catholics looking for a response of condemnation of violence from other Muslim leaders.
"I want honest christians to sit and listen to honest and sincere grieviances of the muslim world. and try to take radical measures to lift injusticeand occupation and support for dictatorships and foreign interference. " - I’m not sure I understand this part, so I’m staying silent. I do hope all of us of all religions can sit and listen to each other and help each other in all that is good.
I believe that what the pope said was not true. Not only that , but it isnt true to any sincere honest scholar of history. The pope is making it impossible for any muslim to have a discussion with him by outright quote somthing that is rediculous about the Prophet of Islam . I am frustrated because while we respect Jesus and Mary and the Decsiples, we are not treated with same respect to our religious symbols. This implies that we are looked upon with bieng lower and thus really doenst make even the moderate people of islam want to engage into anything with such attitude and such will harm dialougue .
The Pope didnt explicitly say that he didnt elieve what the emperor was right at his speach. if he did things would be much different now.
I have big respect for the Vatican though. I feel that his saying ‘‘now’’ that his personal views dont agree with the emperror is a good step. I dont think he should appologise any further , instead i think that the vatican should shed light of how Islam is so central to Muslims. Muslims are many people and they live on this earth and are not going any where soon. We should learn to not offend.
Yes, we are badly in need of honest dialogue. What seems to come in its place is simply one side (or the other) shouting, accusing, threatening etc
I dont think he should appologise any further , instead i think that the vatican should shed light of how Islam is so central to Muslims.
This is an interesting idea. You are saying that the Vatican should act as an intermediary/bridge to promote a greater understanding of Muslims and Islam. This makes sense - who would better to explain the role of religion in the lives of people?
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