Muslims, please tell me if this is unislamic

A Saudi mother is expected to appeal a judge’s ruling after he once again refused to let her 8-year-old daughter divorce a 47-year-old man, a relative said.

Sheikh Habib Al-Habib made the ruling Saturday in the Saudi city of Onaiza. Late last year, he rejected a petition to annul the marriage.

The case, which has drawn criticism from local and international rights groups, came to light in December when Al-Habib declined to annul the marriage on a legal technicality. His dismissal of the mother’s petition sparked outrage and made headlines around the world.

The judge said the mother, who is separated from the girl’s father, was not the legal guardian and therefore could not represent her daughter, the mother’s lawyer, Abdullah al-Jutaili, said at the time.

The girl’s husband pledged not to consummate the marriage until the girl reaches puberty, according to al-Jutaili, who added that the girl’s father arranged the marriage to settle his debts with the man, who is considered “a close friend.”

In March, an appeals court in the Saudi capital of Riyadh declined to certify the original ruling, in essence rejecting al-Habib’s verdict, and sent the case back to al-Habib for reconsideration.

Under the Saudi legal process, the appeals court ruling meant that the marriage was still in effect, but that a challenge to the marriage was still ongoing.

The relative, who said the girl’s mother will continue to pursue a divorce, told CNN the judge “stuck by his earlier verdict and insisted that the girl could petition the court for a divorce once she reached puberty.”

The appeals court in Riyadh will take up the case again and a hearing is scheduled for next month, according to the relative.

Child marriages have made news in Saudi Arabia in the past year.

In a statement issued shortly after the original verdict, the Society of Defending Women’s Rights in Saudi Arabia said the judge’s decision went against children’s “basic rights.”

Marrying children makes them “lose their sense of security and safety,” the group said. “Also, it destroys their feeling of being loved and nurtured. It causes them a lifetime of psychological problems and severe depression.”

Zuhair al-Harithi, a spokesman for the Saudi Human Rights Commission, a government-run group, told CNN that his organization was fighting child marriages.

“Child marriages violate international agreements that have been signed by Saudi Arabia and should not be allowed,” al-Harithi said.

Child marriage is not unusual, said Christoph Wilcke, a Saudi Arabian researcher for the international group Human Rights Watch, after the initial verdict.

“We’ve been hearing about these types of cases once every four or five months because the Saudi public is now able to express this kind of anger, especially so when girls are traded off to older men,”

I am beginning to think that I should not expect anything to make sense that comes from the Islam faith or their countries. These people make no sense.

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

To get rid of loan , no father is allowed to force daughter into marriage . Also , a Muslim can’t force anyone to arrange his daughter’s marriage with him because he is unable to pay him back.

Another participant stared a thread on this topic already. Pl. visit the link

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=296297

So after more than 1400 years, Muslims are starting to understand that Muhammad’s role model of marrying a girl playing with dolls is not an eternal example but one that causes harm to little girls…better late than never…

**To inJesus and bbarrick, please understand that as muslim Woman has informed, it is not Islamic to marry a young girl with any one without her own approval. The first mistake (which was unislamic) was made to marry a daughter to settle a loan. That was bad.
We can leave it at that and not proceed into judgement matters.

Saudi Arabia is a country and it has its laws, good or bad. At least Saudi Arabia does not have any laws about lesbians and same sex marriages and I remember that the Queen of England had to sign a law of homosexuals many years ago. What would you say about all those things going on in the Christian majority countries??

That case in Saudi Arabia is just one case. What is going on daily in Europe? Did you people ever think about that? I am sure you do not like or approve those things. But you do not discuss them too.

If you want to laugh then please have a laugh at the very bad laws in the Christian dominated western countries.**

I prefer to laugh at your utter inability to understand other cultures except through a lens which distorts them into the ‘Great Satan’ you wish to see them as. :D:D:D

It is always heartbreaking to read such horror stories. God be with her and her mother.

It really makes me wonder whether it is better to be an atheist than a Muslim. Of course this is very islamic. Mohammad married a 6yr old, consumated the marriage when she was 9. Personally I very much doubt that he waited three years before he sexually touched (abused) her.

I would like to say much more but I dont want to get banned from this site.

I know that many Christians would automatically say a little prayer for her but I wonder how the majority of Muslims feel about this. This type of abuse would be eliminated much sooner if only Muslims in the free world would have the decency to speak out against it!! But how can they when this is the example of their perfect prophet that they all seek to emulate? Dear God when will Muslims stand up for their own children?

The issue that I see that this man is selling his daughter for debts. This is problematic in Sharia. However, the article only dealt with the issue of whether the mother had the right to stop the marriage and she did not; as the father has primary responsibility in Islamic law (Sharia). Perhaps a judge will still annul the marriage. I converted to Islam, but has since fallen away. I do not fundamantally have a problem with an older man marrying a young girl (as long as she has reached puberty). That being said, I do not feel that is preferable and would never an 8 year old daughter of mine to a 47-year old…especially for debts.

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Father must bear all expenses of the kids but he has no right to sell his daughter . Also , Prophet (pbuh) advised to take opinion of mom while arranging marriage of daughter .

MuslimWoman,

This is one instance where I think we are on the same side. I am not suggesting that he has a right to sell his daughter. I was only saying that the article was about whether the mother could have the marriage cancelled. :slight_smile:

**That is good. You have good balanced ideas. Be reminded that Muslims have come through many centuries of degradation. They are no more what the Muslims used to be. It is not the fault of Islam at all.

We are telling every one here that islam means Peace. But the Catholic friends are saying “No.” Islam is violent. So please tell me whom are the Catholics serving? Supporting?. Are they not supporting the terorists?

Also about that single case of marrying a yound daughter to an old man to settle the debts. It may be bad. But could it be more bad than what is going on day and night in western countries under the very eyes of the Pope and the priests? I am sure that is a problem of much greater magnitude and needs immediate attention by the Catholics rather than the case of a Young girl in Saudi Arabia.

Please be honest. Would you like to be with the Saudis or with the French in Paris etc etc. An incident has taken place in Saudi Arabia. But the millions of incidents (quite illegal, sinful deeds) that are taking place in Christian dominated countries have no match. Would any one please discuss them too, specially the OP?

We have given our opinion that it was wrong to marry a young daughter to settle debt etc…
**

I have finally come to conclude that there is no 1 islam.

Islam as a personal religion is peaceful.

Islam as a political ideology justifies violence as a means to an islamic end.

Please remember I was muslim as well for a while, so I certainly understand the appeal of islam, and its great teachings.

**algebra, you could easily have said

Islam as a personal religion is peaceful.

Islam as a political ideology does not allow violence as a means to achieve land (anything).

Islam is peaceful for the peaceful people.

Islam does not allow any one to attack it. If any did, Islam permits Muslims to defend itself. Never would Islam tell the Muslims to go and attack any peaceful innocent people. Some people forget who was attacking whom. It was not the Muslims at all. But when they were attacked by the nearby kingdoms, the Msulims retaliated and there was a downfall of the attackers.

Please come to reality. I do not mind if you are wandering into different religions. that is upto you. There is no compulsion in any religion. This is the teaching of Islam only. I wish you please show me such a good teaching from the sacred book of any other faith. I feel that you will not find that. You will fail to find the good universal principles in any other religion. It should be discussed on the basis of the sacred scriptures only. Not on the basis of the minds of followers.

The behaviour of the Muslims today may be wrong and anti-islamic. I will not support the bad habits and bad deeds of the present day Muslims.**

Hello all,

Susan here sorry to hear the initial story posted by “algebra” but to be frank thats really sick to read & know that this really happens somewhere in the world, if thats true petty on them.

Cheers!!!

Wow. I am not sure where to start. We must remember that most people are unaware of their own bias. It is unfortunate, but true. Having been engaged on both sides of the Muslim/Christian morality debates, I think I am in a unique position. Let me just give a few thoughts on your question of preference for KSA or France.
My thoughts on the morality of Islam is that it is very close to the Judaic/Christian morality and, therefore, a derivative of Natural Law. However, my experience is that, because it is not an organic outgrowth of Christian cosmology, Islamic morality is more fundamantally a form of legal positivism. The result of this is that Islamic practice will be forever stuck in the 7th century and it will continue to study with modernity. The example of alcohol may be helpful. Alcohol is strictly forbidden in Islam. This necessitates the question as to whether it is essentially detrimental for all people, all places, & all times or it is forbidden simply because God said so. When this question is posed to a learned Muslim, they will attempt to give several detrimental aspects of alcohol. However, given the fact that millions of people, all over the world, drink alcohol without harming thier health or others or being addicted. So, it seems that forbidding alcohol is akin to banning automobiles, since people sometimes misuse automobiles and cause accidents. Ultimately, the Muslim has to fallback on the idea that it is wrong BECAUSE God said so. This is divine legal positivism.
Christianity, however, is based on a concept of Natural Law. This is a concept that, basically, supposes the existence of a law which is determined by nature and that therefore has validity everywhere. This law is wiring into our very souls. So, rape, that is forcing someone to sexually gratifiy oneself, is always wrong, in every place and time. Another example is sexual intercourse. Natural Law posits that sexual intercourse has two purposes to solidify the marriage bond and procreation. For these reasons, homosexual activity is not in conformity with natural law and is objectively disordered and unnatural. Catholic morality is solidly based on Natural Law, yet are unable most Catholics are unaware of this and, therefore, act in accordance with their perception of what they think Catholicism teaches.
My experience is that practicing Islam is very restrictive and, in seems to based on nothing more than 7th century Arab norms, mores, and values. This is why, in my opinion, Islam is at a crossroads in history. Islam will change. I am just unsure what it will look like in 100 years. That being said, I admire the religious sincerity of many Muslims. Christians could learn alot from Muslims about religious life.
Catholicism, in my opinion suffers from what the Bible calls lukewarmness. Practicing Muslims do not suffer from this. Muslims’ adherence, though, does not mask some very difficult and troubling aspects of Islam. Many Christian scholars even feel that Islam is a conglomeration of several Christian Heresies. If I were a betting man, I would put my money on Christianity to outlast Islam. However, Christ said Christians need to take their cross daily and follow Him. At some points in history, the cross has been heavy and ends in martyrdom. I think the tribulation for Christians is coming and I pray Christians are prepared. After, the blood of the martyrs are the seeds of the Church.

It might be relevant to ask planten to provide verses and cases where the consent of a “child bride” is required.

Was the consent of Aisha required in her marriage to Mohammed?

This is blatantly untrue.

The prophet made it a habit to ask neighbouring kingdoms to submit themselves to Allah, and himself.

If they didn’t and did not allow the proseltysing of islam in their region, they were to be forecefully subjugated.

The logic is that by hindering the spread of islam to the people in the region, the king / leader was depriving his subjects from accepting islam and being brought to Allah.

This was considered an evil deed, and the hinderance needed to be removed.

Thus violence was undertaken to justified an islamic end.

You’ve taken the Qur’an out of context.

It was written in the Koran, that all nations were sinners who should not have acknowledged their [Muslims’] authority, that it was their [Muslims’] right and duty to make war upon whoever they could find and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Muslim who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise. – Tripoli’s London ambassador’s response to Thomas Jefferson, March 1785.

Please come to reality.

Hence the violence to remove the hindrance was “defensive”.

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