Muslims? Saved?


#1

Paragraph 841

The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

This is a very troubling statement for a religion that outright rejects the gospel.

From the Koran - Book: The Women

[4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

:doh2:


#2

The Catechism of the Catholic Church on salvation for non-Christians/non-Catholics:

Possible salvation of non-Christians: #s 846-848.

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338


#3

In paragraph 841, the Catechism is not endorsing Isalm wholesale but only pointing out that Islam teaches a few things that are true, such as there is one God.


#4

I don’t think so.


#5

is not endorsing Islam wholesale but only pointing out that Islam teaches a few things that are true, such as there is one God.And that (as it plainly says) these people are included in the plan of salvation. IOW God has a plan to reach them and even if we cannot see how, that does not change the fact that Christ has been lifted up and as promised will draw all men to Him.

So many people want to make more of this than it either says or what it means. :rolleyes:

I don’t know how God will save the Jews or Moslems, all I know is that I am to teach all the world about Christ and live my faith out moment by moment and I trust the Holy Spirit to do what I cannot see being accomplished. (Like just for instance…the conversion of all the cryin’, whinin’ n-Cs and a-Cs as well as those Catholics who have fallen away from our most holy faith, wherever they are now.)


#6

Since when are you infallible?


#7

Since when is Jimmy Akin infallible…? Yet you treat him the way Iwould treat John MacArthur.


#8

Wow…sometimes a feel like a broken record…but here goes…deep breath…

The quote comes from the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium, which states:

Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are **related in various ways to the people of God.***(18) … Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely ***seek God **and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19) (Lumen Gentium, 16)

[Footnotes:]
(18) Cfr. S. Thomas, Summa Theol. III, q. 8, a. 3, ad 1.
(19) Cfr. Epist. S.S.C.S. Officii ad Archiep. Boston.: Denz. 3869-72

This does not mean everyone necessarily goes to heaven no matter what they believe or do, as some seem to presume. Instead, the authentic sense of this passage is better understood by referring to the texts which are footnoted…

Footnote 18 explicitly cites the Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas, which states,

Those who are unbaptized, though not actually in the Church, are in the Church potentially. And this potentiality is rooted in two things–first and principally, in the power of Christ, which is sufficient for the salvation of the whole human race; secondly, in free-will.” (Summa Theologica, III, 8, 3)

Thus, Jesus both wills and gives his grace such that all can be saved. But salvation requires consent of the will, co-operating with the grace given.

St. Thomas, in the same article of the Summa explains the various ways people are related to the Church:

We must therefore consider the members of the mystical body not only as they are in act, but as they are in potentiality. Nevertheless, some are in potentiality who will never be reduced to act, and some are reduced at some time to act…Christ is the Head of all men, but diversely. For, first and principally, He is the Head of such as are united to Him by glory; secondly, of those who are actually united to Him by charity; thirdly, of those who are actually united to Him by faith; fourthly, of those who are united to Him merely in potentiality, which is not yet reduced to act, yet will be reduced to act according to Divine predestination; fifthly, of those who are united to Him in potentiality, which will never be reduced to act; such are those men existing in the world, who are not predestined, who, however, on their departure from this world, wholly cease to be members of Christ. (ibid.)

Footnote 19 is from the Letter of the Holy Office, approved and promulgated by Pius XII (August 8, 1949) (source):

… that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that ***at least he be united to her by desire and longing. ***

…*** this desire need not always be explici***t, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God. … the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are actually incorporated into the Church as members, and those who are united to the Church only by desire. … those who do not belong to the body of the Catholic Church, he mentions those who “are related to the Mystical Body of the Redeemer by a certain unconscious yearning and desire,” and these he by no means excludes from eternal salvation… But it must not be thought that any kind of desire of entering the Church suffices that one may be saved. It is necessary that the desire by which one is related to the Church be animated by perfect charity. Nor can an implicit desire produce its effect, unless a person has supernatural faith


#9

The question of so-called “salvation outside the Church” can be tricky and is often mis-understood.

For good authoritative explanations of the Church’s position, read Lumen Gentium (sections 13-16, especially) and Dominus Iesus (sections 20-22, especially).

Basically:

  1. All people are called to the fullness of the Catholic faith because there is no salvation outside the Church and there is one salvation for all people, one ultimate destiny God intends for all people.

This means that:

  1. Salvation is possible for all people.

  2. It is possible for all people to be related (even in implicit, unknown ways) to the Body of Christ.

  3. It is possible for all people to be related (even in implicit, unknown ways) to the Catholic Church.

  4. Those who do not culpably reject the Catholic faith may be saved.

  5. Those who knowingly reject the Catholic faith cannot be saved.

  6. Grace is operative outside the visible boundaries of the Church but always through the Church and always leading to the Church because the Holy Spirit does not lead anyone to anywhere separate from Christ.


#10

Does the Pope have that absolute ability to come out relentlessly to the world and proclaim that only in Chrits can one be saved and pour out the scriptures…?

Acts 4:12 KJV 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

John 14:6 KJV 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 10:1 KJV 1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
John 10:9 KJV 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

John 3:36 KJV 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:16 KJV 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 KJV 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1 John 5:12 KJV 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

1 Corinthians 15:1-6 KJV 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

YES - HE HAS THAT ABILITY!!! BUT THE SWORD GOES UNWIELDED AND WE ARE LEFT WITH PEOPLE WHO GO INTO THE GHETTO’S OF THE EARTH AND THE JUNGLES OF AFRICA TO DO THAT WORK TO RISK THEIR LIVES AND LIVE IN HORRIBLE CONDITIONS BECAUSE IT WILL NOT BE DONE BY ONE WHO COULD DO IT FROM THE COMFORT OF A PADDED CHAIR.

This is a sad commentary on the Catholic Church…and to think I was about to return.

Peter was sent to Cornelius that he might have sufficient light - although He seemed to be responding to grace just fine (Acts 10)…Why was it necesary to send an angel, nonetheless, to make sure that He heard the gospel.

All are “condemned already” in their sin unless they are born again. Otherwise, they just were not of the elect.

I will leave you all to continue to dance your way around this thread…

Romans 10:2 KJV 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

Luke 12:45-48 KJV 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes (which all have done), shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Less punishment in hell - that is the best that they get. I wish for more to be saved, yes…but, to compromise truth is another thing.


#11

Not so at all, Craig.
Though I suppose that you wish.


#12

This is a sad commentary on the Catholic Church…and to think I was about to return

.

You were thinking of returning? I never really got that from your posts. Your mind always seemed set on what you presently believe. But I will keep you in my prayers :crossrc:

God Bless,
Michael


#13

The Church does not say that a religion may be saved. It says that people may be saved.

Answer this question honestly. Do you desire that Muslims, who have never been taught anything other than Islam, might still be given by God the opportunity for salvation (however God might present that opportunity to them)? Please, answer that question.


#14

You may want to read Ad Gentes, Evangelii Nuntiandi, Redemptoris Missio, and the section in Pastores Gregis on missionary activity for a sample of the more recent exhortations from the councils and popes on missionary activity and evangelization.

Evangelization and missionary activity are essential to the Church since her communion is founded in Trinitarian love. She must always go outside of herself, through the impetus of the Holy Spirit–who is the love of the Father and the Son–to lead others to Christ. The Church was given the commandment to teach the nations by Christ himself.


#15

The Catholic Church does more missionary work than any other Church in the world–we don’t have 1.1 billion members in all corners of the world because we’re bad at spreading the faith :stuck_out_tongue:

As The Second Vatican Council stated after discussing the possibility of salvation for those outside the visible structure of the Church:

“But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.”


#16


All are “condemned already” in their sin unless they are born again. Otherwise, they just were not of the elect.

I will leave you all to continue to dance your way around this thread…

Less punishment in hell - that is the best that they get. I wish for more to be saved, yes…but, to compromise truth is another thing.You have about the most messed up thinking I have ever seen Craig.

On his “bad days” the Pope probably reaches more people with a Gospel message that you will ever be aware of. I keep track of what he preaches. Do you? If you say yes then I sure can’t tell because you come off with the craziest propaganda.

That whole shouting bit up there is just dead wrong.

You have yet to show where the truth has been compromised by the Catholic Church. All that has been shown is that the Church (and the New Testament as well as the writings of the early church) do not agree with what you have chosen to buy into.

Your doctrines are in error in large part because you have embraced the fundamental error of Sola Scriptura, something the Bible does not teach, the early church did not believe, and something that was invented by rebels some 500 years ago and their wayward step-children since have gone even farther astray.

Don’t allege things against the Catholic Church that are not factually accurate Craig.

You’re just frustrated because you wear yourself out arguing against the Catholic faith and for doctrines that have already been proven flawed.

I’ll say to you the same thing that Our Lord said to St. Paul. “It is hard for thee to kick against the goad.” Acts 9:5 & 26:14.


#17

WE ARE LEFT WITH PEOPLE WHO GO INTO THE GHETTO’S OF THE EARTH AND THE JUNGLES OF AFRICA TO DO THAT WORK TO RISK THEIR LIVES AND LIVE IN HORRIBLE CONDITIONS BECAUSE IT WILL NOT BE DONE BY ONE WHO COULD DO IT FROM THE COMFORT OF A PADDED CHAIR.

People in jungles and ghettos don’t read encyclicals or the transcripts of papal audiences. It takes individuals–priests, laity, and religious–to go in and work with people–to not just preach the Gospel, but to also demonstrate the self-sacrficing charity that is the fruit of the Gospel. The Pope has his role too–not all members of the Body have the same function.


#18

If the Pope preached the gospel properly and called all Muslims to repentance, this would be a political problem and would be splashed across the airwaves…I have not seen this happen yet. Maybe he is just being politically correct. I don’t find that we ought to be politically correct in the Bible. If He came out and preached the exclusivity of Christ…being the only way and that all others are on the wrong track, news would be made of it, and it would certainly cause uproar.

Acts 4:12"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

ONLY THE ELECT ARE SAVED!


#19

Yes. He has.

From the prologue of the Catechism of the Catholic Church

“FATHER, . . . this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.” [Jn 17:3] “God our Savior desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” [1 Tim 2:3-4] “There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” [Acts 4:12] - than the name of JESUS.

As for the rest of your noise, all I heard was “blah blah blah…anti-Catholic vitriol…blah blah blah.”


#20

Do people honestly think the pope says anything BUT that Christ is the only way to salvation? You probably don’t notice it because it’s simply not news.

I can see it now:

This just in! Breaking news: Pope Claims Jesus is Only Savior! Radical claim shocks millions the world over! “I never knew the Catholic Church was so Christocentric,” says John Smith. More at 11:00…

People must not listen to anything the pope says or read anything he writes.


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