Muslims


#1

This is an example of how the Catholic Church can contradicted itself and the Bible at the same time.

1- Catholic Catechism, par. 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? [Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21: PL 3, 1169; De unit.: PL 4, 509-536.] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it**.** [LG 14; cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5.]

**2- **Catholic Catechism, par. 841[size=3] The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. 'The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.’ [LG 16; cf. NA 3.]

3- John 3:18 Whoever believes in him [Jesus] is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

Acts 4:11-12 [11] He is “the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone [cornerstone of a building].” [12] Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.

John 5:22-23 [22] Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, [23] that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

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#2

No, its an example of how someone can misunderstand the Church.

By the way, are you ever going to respond to my question in the sinless Mary thread, or are you just going to ignore your own contradiction and circular logic in order to start new threads about our faith?

Here is the question you seem to be avoiding over and over:

“How do you know that those verses in your Bible are supposed to be in your Bible?”


#3

[quote=Christopher]No, its an example of how someone can misunderstand the Church.

By the way, are you ever going to respond to my question in the sinless Mary thread, or are you just going to ignore your own contradiction and circular logic in order to start new threads about our faith?

Here is the question you seem to be avoiding over and over:

“How do you know that those verses in your Bible are supposed to be in your Bible?”
[/quote]

I am catholic and he is not contradicting himself with the catechism example.

You know, most people are not stupid. We do know how to read and comprehend what we are actually reading.

We cannot use the " you just don’t understand" excuse all the time.


#4

[quote=WanderingCathol]I am catholic and he is not contradicting himself with the catechism example.

You know, most people are not stupid. We do know how to read and comprehend what we are actually reading.

We cannot use the " you just don’t understand" excuse all the time.
[/quote]

If you understand it, explain it. It doesnt contradict.


#5

[quote=Christopher]By the way, are you ever going to respond to my question in the sinless Mary thread, or are you just going to ignore your own contradiction and circular logic in order to start new threads about our faith?

Here is the question you seem to be avoiding over and over:

“How do you know that those verses in your Bible are supposed to be in your Bible?”
[/quote]

You doubt you own Bible. As I see it, you are a Catholic but you are not a Christian. Of course that’s my own point of view only, but doubting the Word of the Bible that was written through the Holy Spirit and asking for a proof, it’s like saying proof that Jesus exist… well sorry i will not answer your question.

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. (Matthew 12:31)

[quote=WanderingCathol]I am catholic and he is not contradicting himself with the catechism example.

You know, most people are not stupid. We do know how to read and comprehend what we are actually reading.

We cannot use the " you just don’t understand" excuse all the time.
[/quote]

Here is a rare example of a Catholic willing to discuss things in a reasonable way and not blindly surrendering his will to the “Catechism”.

[quote=Christopher]If you understand it, explain it. It doesnt contradict.
[/quote]

Come on! The contradiction of the Catechism to itself and to the Bible is as clear as the sun. I already have highlited the important words! Anyway i don’t expect an explanation since the contradiction is so clear you cannot justify your point. But if you have an explanation please do post it.


#6

You doubt you own Bible. As I see it, you are a Catholic but you are not a Christian. Of course that’s my own point of view only, but doubting the Word of the Bible that was written through the Holy Spirit and asking for a proof, it’s like saying proof that Jesus exist… well sorry i will not answer your question.

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. (Matthew 12:31)

I don’t doubt my own Bible, so lets not switch the topic, k?

I asked you to explain how you know the Bible has the correct verses in it.

You refuse to answer the question and instead judge that I have blasphemed the Holy Spirit.

I guess you know on some level that you can’t answer the question without admitting the Catholic Church put the Bible together in the first place.

:thumbsup:


#7

Come on! The contradiction of the Catechism to itself and to the Bible is as clear as the sun. I already have highlited the important words! Anyway i don’t expect an explanation since the contradiction is so clear you cannot justify your point. But if you have an explanation please do post it.

The Church says that anyone saved is only saved through Jesus, period.

The Church says that anyone saved is only saved through Jesus, period. Got it?

Now, IF a Muslim is ever saved, and that is a big “IF” then it is only through Jesus, whether they know it or not. If they haven’t truly heard the truth about Jesus and haven’t rejected Him, and tried to follow God as best they could, then who are you to judge them?


#8

[quote=homer]You doubt you own Bible. As I see it, you are a Catholic but you are not a Christian. Of course that’s my own point of view only, but doubting the Word of the Bible that was written through the Holy Spirit and asking for a proof, it’s like saying proof that Jesus exist… well sorry i will not answer your question.

[/quote]

I guess that means you won’t answer my question on where the bible says that the bible alone is our authority. This question does NOT mean that we don’t trust the bible. We trust it, but we also know where it comes from and the history of the Christian world before it even came together. Do you know history at all?

Homer, explain to me where the bible came from? Did it drop out of the sky? Do you know that in the first several centuries there were ‘other’ gospels (gospel of Thomas, gospel of Peter), that many people thought were inspired? Why aren’t they in the bible (they shouldn’t be)? Why are the books that are there, there? Ask yourself some of these questions.

We do not doubt the bible because we question you. We are TRYING to get you to think about some of the assumptions you have. You found Jesus (wonderful!), and someone you know and respect handed you a bible, or told you to get a bible, and said, this is the only authority in you life? Why did you accept that statement?

Let me ask you again. Where did the bible, in the form you hold in your hands come from? Don’t say the Holy Spirit, we agree. Physically, historically, how did it find its form.

P.S.
Wondering Catholic is a traditionalist Catholic who doesn’t accept Vatican II or John Paul the second as the Pope. He is a dissenter, and by definition a protestant as well. He only agreed with you because he thinks us wrong as well. Sorry, no faithful Catholic will bolster you arguments


#9

Apparently I see no contradiction in the examples above. Par. 846 presents the conditions wherby a believer should act in accordance to the faith. Yet that would not be possible if he has not discern the full knowledge of it. Par.841 comments that our muslim brothers share a same doctrine of faith, that is the belief in a Creator. In no way does the two paragraph contradict one another.


#10

In any event, I guess I’ll entertain your question in the meantime. The truth is that the Church/Catechism does NOT contradict the bible. It ONLY contradicts (seemingly) the few lines you happen to know by rote that you think bolster your position. The Bible in full context of all it says is MUCH bigger than those few lines. Please consider just this…

*Romans 2:

  • *9: There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, **10: but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. **11: For God shows no partiality. **12: All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
  • *13: For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. **14: When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. **15: They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them **16: on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the **secrets **of men by Christ Jesus. *

…The clear impliation here is that even one who hasn’t actually heard of Jesus, has the truth of Jesus written on his heart. If he follows that truth inherent in each person, he MAY be saved (not will be, may be), if he doesn’t, then he will not be saved.

See, even Saint Paul allowed for the possiblity of the person not having heard the Gospel to be saved. If that is not so, how in the world could we call God just?

Your not the only one who knows your way around scripture friend.


#11

You don’t have to look at them as contradictions. The catholic faith is very complex:

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

ABOUT THE BIBLE: It is the the Lutherans (protestants) that “travel around in in the Bible” looking for contradictions. Catholics are not supposed to do that. We have a 2000 year old Tradition to help us read the Bible in an understandabel and catholic way:

Try Catholic Exchanges FREE Biblestudy:

catholicexchange.com/

:blessyou:

G.G.


#12

And yet no explanation …

Christopher your “explanation” itself contradicts the catechism that contradicts itself and the Bible.
Silmarillion you are questioning my faith (and yours). Who cares if the Pope himself phisically and personally gave me the Bible as it is today or if a Protestant gave it to me. The point is that you must follow it since it is the word of God and you should not contradict it with human teachings and traditions and this contradiction clearly shows in the beginning of this post.


#13

I have a very good relationship with muslims and I find them very nice people. When talking about faith, I somehow feel they have far more respect for Catholicism than Protestants. They too have high regards for Mary, for Muhammad placed her as the most holiest of women, even greater than his daughter Fatima. Moreover the faith of a muslim is in the Quran(koran), and not the Bible, thus the belief is theologically irreconciliable with Christianity whereas Protestant are quite inexcusable when the facts in the Bible point to the Catholic Church.


#14

[quote=homer]And yet no explanation …

Christopher your “explanation” itself contradicts the catechism that contradicts itself and the Bible.
Silmarillion you are questioning my faith (and yours). Who cares if the Pope himself phisically and personally gave me the Bible as it is today or if a Protestant gave it to me. The point is that you must follow it since it is the word of God and you should not contradict it with human teachings and traditions and this contradiction clearly shows in the beginning of this post.
[/quote]

The point is that it only contradicts YOUR PERSONAL interpretation…this is the same point with the Bible. The Catholic Church with its authority put the Bible together in the first place…that is why HER interpretation matters. Get it?


#15

Ok i can see that i will not get a explanation. To be honest that’s what i expected and it only made my belief in Jesus Christ stronger. I hope this post will make some people re-read their Bible carefully and find the truth.


#16

I gave you an explanation in post #7, which is more than you are willing to do when asked how you know your Bible has the correct verses in it.

But keep sticking your fingers in your ears and pretending you havent been answered if that works for you.


#17

[quote=homer]The point is that you must follow it since it is the word of God and you should not contradict it with human teachings and traditions and this contradiction clearly shows in the beginning of this post.
[/quote]

Do you understand how ridiculous this sounds? I do not question anyones faith by asking logical questions such as…

How does one know it’s the word of God?
Did God hand it to you personally?
How did you come to that understanding?

…And I did give you an explanation from Romans 2 that supports the Catholic understanding, but since you don’t actually want to hear an explanation, you simply ignored it.


#18

I’m sure it’ll do that. You may have driven some people to become Catholic! :smiley:


#19

[quote=homer]And yet no explanation …

Christopher your “explanation” itself contradicts the catechism that contradicts itself and the Bible.
Silmarillion you are questioning my faith (and yours). Who cares if the Pope himself phisically and personally gave me the Bible as it is today or if a Protestant gave it to me. The point is that you must follow it since it is the word of God and you should not contradict it with human teachings and traditions and this contradiction clearly shows in the beginning of this post.
[/quote]

My Bible doesn’t do anything or go anywhere on its own; it’s up to me to pick up and take it with me as I go. :slight_smile:

The Catholic church is the necessary means of salvation, but there are many ways of considering it so.

Consider this: we are all discussing the merits of the Scriptures and the catechism, but how did the books of the new testament survive, and how were they brought together and preserved in the Bible? It was the early christian church, which was already calling itself “catholic” in the 1st century. If you base your salvation on Jesus, whom you only know via the bible (if you’re a protestant), and the catholic church is means by which the bible (the NT) was collected and preserved (martyrs died in Rome hiding and preserving the texts), then it follows that the catholic church is neccesary for your salvation.

Whatever your position is, and however strongly you feel about it, you should never presume to know the heart or mind of God; his capcacity for love and mercy is far beyond our ability to comprehend.

When we die, we will see Him as He is, not as we interpret Him to be, and the choices we have made will become obviously loving or sinful, regardless of the perspective we had on earth. How we will be judged on is how we acted given what we knew, Do I need to quote passages scripture to justify this, or do the scriptures as a whole support it?


#20

Ahh. Lets try this again. All my work got lost!

You left some things out of the Catechism that show the Church does not teach against the Bible. Maybe the site you got them from only had that which you quoted but I’ll help you out. Quotes straight from the Catechim, will be blue. Those that I wish to highlight will be red.Mine will be black. I also realize that the full context will probably do nothing to change your mind, but I do this to help any who do not own a catechism themselves.:eek:

The Church and non-Christians
#839 “those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various way.”(LG16)

It goes on to explain the relationship between Jewish people and Catholic, differenciating between othe non Christian religions

#840describes the sameness, Jewish people wait for the Messiah we wait for His return.

#841 Homer quoted correctly.

#842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
It then references LG16 and Romans 1:21, 25

#843The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church consider all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”

#844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfugure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair. (LG 16; Rom 1:21, 25)

#845 Talks of the Church is where man must rediscover its unity and salvation.

Outside the Church there is no salvation
#846 Homer also quotes this correctly.

#847 Talks about those who through no fault of their own do not know the gospel. The church holds that if they hold to the dictates of their conscience, they too may receive salvation.

#848 But we still should evangelize.

Taken in totallity, these teachings of the church show that We are only saved through Christ, but God can choose to also save those who do not know the gospel through no fault of their own, but seek God with a sincere heart, that would include some Muslims.

An anology, I can not even know or be aware of the fact that a doctor is saving my life. He was able to save it even though I don’t even know him. Those who truly seek God with a sincere heart, but through no fault of their own do not know the gospel, can be Saved through Christ even though they do not know Him.

God Bless


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