Must we accept Vatican II to be Catholic?

Can someone honestly reject some of things that came from Vatican II and still be considered a good Catholic?

Example. Lumen Gentium, Nostra Aetate, etc.

My main problem is the teaching that Muslims worship the same God as Christians…If we must believe this, then I will have to depart from the Catholic faith forever, because its rubbish.

Thanks.

Christians, Jews, Muslims all believe in the God of Abraham but only Christians understand that means the Holy Trinity.

You could put it another way and say that all three faiths ***claim ***to worship the same God. I think there are lots of good Muslims out their who have contact with God through their faith.

It is wrong to reject the Vatican II council, and it documents and teachings. I had asked this question to Fr. Mitch Pacwa, in which he answered on his TV show “Threshold of Hope” I suggest that you read the documents and find out what they say.

No one can reject Vatican II and remain a Catholic in good standing.

Muslims worship the God of Abraham - they refer to Him as Allah; we know Him as Yaweh. That’s where the similarity ends, however.

That said, I don’t think you’re really Catholic as you claim. I suspect you’re a Protestant who wants Catholics to reject the Church because of this convenient intellectual obstacle you’ve erected in your heart. I don’t know a single, authentic Catholic who would leave the Church “forever” because they don’t understand Vatican II.

Your position is highly unscriptural. Paul tells us that even the pagans, who knew nothing of the Judeo-Christian God, still worshiped him (Acts 17:23). If even the pagans worshiped the true God, then how can you say that the Muslims, who acknowledge the God of Abraham, do not?

None of this denies that Islam is a man-made religion, lacking in divine revelation and divine guidance from error. But the God they worship is the one true God, however distorted is their understanding of him.

How does the Catholic church reconcile this notion of other religions worshipping the same god with the Catholic claim that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic church?

Does it mean that other religions worship God but all of them are damned anyway? What does it mean exactly?

Nope. It means that all salvation that comes - whoever it comes to - comes THROUGH the Church. More specifically through Christ, its head. All who are saved are within the Church, although some are within in an informal and unconscious way.

Jesus’ death opened up the possibility of salvation to all mankind. The means of salvation are dispensed in the world through His body, the Church. No one could be saved except by this act of His, and through the work of the Church. Does that mean one needs to be consciously aware of Him and His death, or His body the Church, to be saved? No.

If a mother snatches her young baby away from falling into a mud puddle, the baby isn’t aware that the mother has saved it from getting muddy, but the fact nonetheless remains that the child’s salvation came through the mother regardless of the child’s unconsciousness of it. More importantly for your question, the fact remains that without (outside) the mother there would’ve been no escape from the mud for that child. Even if the child doesn’t know or understand whence its escape has come.

Thats funny:D because I don’t worship the God of Abraham, I worship the savior Jesus Christ. Funny you never mentioned him and you are a Christian.

If one worships the God of Abraham, I presume that would make you a Muslim or a Jew.

Also, you are incorrect when you say “only Christians understand that means the Holy Trinity.” Jews “understand” and Muslims “understand”. They know who Jesus is and they reject him. That is why they call themselves Jews and Muslims, BECAUSE…now here is the real kicker - they do NOT BELIEVE that Jesus is God. They believe he was a Man with a god complex (Jews) or a man who was misrepresented in the New Testament and who never was anything other than an ordinary man who (Muslims).

Either way, if you are a Christian and you don’t know that Jesus Christ is the savior, then I don’t think there is a single thing I can tell you that will make sense to you.

Or if you are a Christian, and you worship the God of Abraham, and you don’t know that Jesus Christ came to save you (yes you Jews and Muslims) then…? Who am I to tell you anything.

The one you should be listening to is Jesus Christ himself! Not me or anyone else on this forum. I strongly urge you to go back to the scriptures and read. Otherwise, I just wouldn’t want to be you at Judgement, I’m sorry but its true. You can honestly deny Jesus and not feel bad about it???

Lord have mercy.

And that goes out to all the posters here who have denied Jesus.

Don’t make the mistake of equating all worship as acceptable and accepted by God since we know from Cain and Abel that God utterly rejected Cain’s while accepting Able’s. This is a classic case of two brothers both believing in God but one having an invalid motive or insincere inner disposition or invalid form. God would never accept a pagan blood-offering of innocent children (or animals) to Himself anymore so than He would accept the prayers of a hypocrite who was outwardly pious but inwardly a grave sinner in his acts (say adultery or murder etc.); unless those prayers were earnest prayers of remorse and sorrow and repentance.

So don’t make the mistake of assuming that just anyone who mumbles a few prayers is pleasing to God nor assume any of these are saved.

“Not all who call me Lord Lord will enter into my Kingdom.”

Also note that except for the Orthodox and a few other small apostolic sects no one but Catholics offer up true “latria” perfect worship to God. It is impossible to “worship in spirit and truth” without the sacrifice of Christ in the Eucharist. The absolute best any non-Catholic and non-apostolic faith can offer to God as worship is a lessor form of worship called “Dulia” - simple prayer (except for perhaps martyrdom as a victim not as an aggressor - e.g. not of the Islamic variety).

But the sacrifice of Cain is not acceptable to God as worship and becomes not an occasion of blessing but an occasion of offense and condemnation. This is why it is very important that Catholics do NOT receive the Eucharist unworthily - since this is a sacrilege of the highest order given the holiness, purity and divinity of Christ.

What it all means is that many worship God imperfectly and some others do not worship God at all even thought they think they do.

James

No, they don’t. Jews and Muslims do not claim to worship Jesus.

Interesting. You worship Yaweh? Interesting.

I disagree with your use of Acts 17 to support your thesis. The pagans did not worship the true God, you need to go back and read Acts 17.

Wow, Allah is the one true God eh! Wow, I’m speechless. Utterly speechless.

1000% correct. Vatican II was not a binding doctrinal council, it was pastoral so had no authority to mess with the clearly defined fact that God is a Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Do not pay any attention to all that nonsense of the God of Abraham qualifies as ‘God’ today. He was then, but NOT after the Second Person of the Trinity was incarnated and taught us God is actually a Trinity. Jews and Muslims REJECT the fact that Jesus is God so they do not in fact believe in GOD. End of Story no matter how the Modernists try to make it fit.

So Hypothesis you can, like I do, reject such thinking and ONLY by doing so do you remain Catholic.

You are totally misunderstanding and misrepresenting everything that you are replying to. Not to mention taking them completely out of context. I would suggest that you read Lumen Gentium, Dei Verbum among others. See what the Vatican II documents really say before shooting off your mouth and being ready to defend what you say.

There were no new dogmas defined in Vatican II.
Trent was the last major addition to dogma in defining what is not true Christian teaching (that being Protestantism). Vatican II was a change in some of the disciplines of The Church - particularly in the mass and the liturgy. Note however, that the IMPLEMENTATION of Vatican II in the USA by the US bishops in particular is seen as mostly incompetent with respect to what VII actually called for. I think there is a movement within The Church to now attempt to get VII properly implemented and Pope BXVI is already making great progress in making Latin masses a norm rather than requiring special grants as well as reeling in the liberalization that some bishops permitted to take place in their dioceses.

James

What on earth are you talking about? Are you denying that the God of Abraham is the Holy Trinity, which includes Christ? Do you deny that the Trinity has existed from before Creation? Do you deny that Christ existed before Creation? If you don’t deny any of this, then “the God of Abraham”, in His true identity, is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If a Catholic states that he/she is worshipping the God of Abraham, they are worshipping all three persons of the Trinity.

Interesting. You worship Yaweh? Interesting.

So you don’t believe that Yaweh of the Old Testament is the one, triune God?

My opinion:

If Vatican II is an invalid council that introduced error, that means all Popes who have upheld this error and taught error. If this is true, then Jesus lied when He said the gates of Hell would not prevail. If He lied about that, He lied about everything else.

So - either VII was valid or Christianity is false. IMO, you can’t be Catholic and reject VII, otherwise you deny Jesus meant what He said.

OP: I encourage you to READ the VII docs in their entirety, and read (from reliable sources) what they mean. Reading schismatic stuff won’t give you the truth. Call Catholic Answers, I bet they can give you a good book rec.

The first words of the Creed are “I believe in one God.” There is only one God, so it must be that Muslims worship the same God that Christians do, or they worship nothing at all.

The Church teaches that Muslims worship the same God we do. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Moses is the same triune God we worship, although His triune nature was revealed only through Christ. The Muslims understand God imperfectly. Catholics also understand God imperfectly, although, through no merit of our own, we have been given the opportunity to understand some aspects His nature better.

It seems that the principle stumbling block to accepting Vatican II is the oldest of all stumbling blocks - the hubris of denying that others may be allowed to approach the same God that we do, and the audacity to assume that one is loved by Him more than one’s neighbor is.

I concur. If anything stay away from schismatic stuff most notably: popeinred.com, sspx.org and mostholyfamilymonestary.com. Lumen Gentium might be a good Vatican II document to start with

Here’s an idea to consider. The Gates of Hell did NOT prevail and God preserved the church that the Holy Scriptures speak of–the church with Christ and Christ only at its head. And one of the prime instruments of this preservation was Martin Luther.

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