My Catholic friend wants to be an Episcopalian.


#1

I learned on Facebook today that one of my friends is formally entering the Episcopalian Chuch in a few months. I think he converted to Catholicism in high school from Anglicanism, but has decided now in his last year of college to become Episcopalian.

The weird thing about this is that he attends a traditional Catholic college and his mother, who was in the process of taking vows as an eremitic, appears to be supporting him. So do all of the friends who have replied to his post on Facebook. This seems odd to me. I remember that the Anglican Church had some kind of merger with the Catholic Church. Is it possible that something similar happened with the Episcopalians that I’m not aware of? That might explain why everyone is reacting so strangely to his decision.


#2

Has he explained the reasons for conversion?


#3

Your friend should want to be an Episcopalian only if he supports the killing of the unborn, the ordination of women, the ordination of homosexual men or women, contraception on demand, and to believe as he pleases while maintaining the illusion that this is Christianity. They do, however, have worship services full of pomp and circumstance, patterned after the Catholic Mass. My :twocents:


#4

the Episcopal church is basically a (very very liberal) protestant church pretending to be Catholic..
it seems like he wants to keep some tradtions and rituals, while letting go of rulesand guilt..that's the only thing I can think of that would make someone want to leave Catholicism for the Episcopal church.
But no, there hasn't been any joining with the Episcopal and Catholic Churches


#5

[quote="Jim_Dandy, post:3, topic:288773"]
Your friend should want to be an Episcopalian only if he supports the killing of the unborn, the ordination of women, the ordination of homosexual men or women, contraception on demand, and to believe as he pleases while maintaining the illusion that this is Christianity. They do, however, have worship services full of pomp and circumstance, patterned after the Catholic Mass. My :twocents:

[/quote]

There are conservative Episcopalian parishes, you know.


#6

[quote="TeenageConvert, post:4, topic:288773"]
the Episcopal church is basically a (very very liberal) protestant church pretending to be Catholic..
it seems like he wants to keep some tradtions and rituals, while letting go of rulesand guilt..that's the only thing I can think of that would make someone want to leave Catholicism for the Episcopal church.
But no, there hasn't been any joining with the Episcopal and Catholic Churches

[/quote]

As someone who has been put in the position of discerning whether I want to begin attending an Episcopal or other church, or not, I can assure you there is far more to it than things like letting go of guilt. Or maintaining an illusion that the Episcopal Church is Christianity or supporting the killing of the unborn, things Jim Dandy said. :rolleyes: I have no doubt Episcopalians are Christians. I'm under no illusion that they are not. The last I knew even the Catholic Church called them Christian and I have seen them follow Christ for instance in outreach programs for the needy for me not to believe they are Christian. I also am not under any illusion that those Protestants your church calls Christian are not. For me it begins with being welcomed as I am. Warts and all. Not being turned away or driven away.


#7

Just to clear up a few things, Episcopalians are Anglicans. The Anglican Church is a worldwide communion of which the Episcopal Church is the US branch. So essentially, this friend was Anglican, became Catholic and is now going back to the Anglican Church.

Some parishes in the US ordain women, some don’t. Some parishes in the US ordain homosexuals and some don’t. Both the Episcopal Church and the Anglican Church in Canada tend to be more liberal than its counterparts within the Communion which has caused enormous controversy. Perhaps there will be changes with the new Archbishop of Canterbury, but one can only speculate.


#8

[quote="Jim_Dandy, post:3, topic:288773"]
Your friend should want to be an Episcopalian only if he supports the killing of the unborn, the ordination of women, the ordination of homosexual men or women, contraception on demand, and to believe as he pleases while maintaining the illusion that this is Christianity. They do, however, have worship services full of pomp and circumstance, patterned after the Catholic Mass. My :twocents:

[/quote]

My journey the other way (from Episcopal to Catholic) began because of the EC's decision to support abortion on demand for any reason -- however, it is my personal belief that all of these things you mention are symptoms of an even bigger problem -- a departure from the basic Creeds -- I honestly don't know at this point if belief in the Creeds broke down, and the other things followed, or thousands of compromises finally crumbled the rest of the faith.

For me, the issue of "gay marriage" has kept everyone talking. Actually kind of makes me wonder why people have left the Episcopal Church in droves over gay marriage, while some of the leadership denies basic Christian beliefs like the resurrection, ascension, virgin birth, and Christ dying for our sins, and there is not the same outcry.

Before he joins the Episcopal Church, which he might well be drawn to because it feels sort of like a Catholic Mass, with rules "relaxed", have him google Bishop Spong. We have paid a very high price for gay marriage. Even if one happened to believe that same sex marriage is a good idea, the sacrifices to keep us this farce are intolerable.


#9

[quote="Gwendolen, post:8, topic:288773"]
For me, the issue of "gay marriage" has kept everyone talking. Actually kind of makes me wonder why people have left the Episcopal Church in droves over gay marriage, while some of the leadership denies basic Christian beliefs like the resurrection, ascension, virgin birth, and Christ dying for our sins, and there is not the same outcry.

[/quote]

Can you site your sources, please? I would be curious to read more about this because it hasn't been my experience. I think it would be inaccurate to say "people have left the Episcopal Church in droves over gay marriage." Yet, that is not to say that there hasn't been some major controversy and debate, and yes, parishioners have left.


#10

I can only give second-hand knowledge from talking to Episcopal Catholic converts about the gay marriage issue. From what I gathered certain bishops denying the resurrection could be attributed to "rogue elements", but they had been suspecting for a long time that liberals had started to hijack the Episcopal church. For them the gay marriage issue was the final straw for them and it indicated that the Episcopal church had been completely hijacked by liberals.

Even though this didn't really affect their parishes since here most Episcopal parishes are very conservative, evangelical and low-church.


#11

[quote="Conor7, post:9, topic:288773"]
Can you site your sources, please? I would be curious to read more about this because it hasn't been my experience. I think it would be inaccurate to say "people have left the Episcopal Church in droves over gay marriage." Yet, that is not to say that there hasn't been some major controversy and debate, and yes, parishioners have left.

[/quote]

I'm sorry, I should have said "homosexual issues", instead of marriage because ordination of homosexual men and women has been huge.

freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2770106/posts -- here is the main quote from this source:
The consecration of the openly homosexual Bishop of New Hampshire, V. Gene Robinson, has proven to be the single greatest cause of conflict in The Episcopal Church. That action has resulted in rapidly declining and permanently lost members and financial decline with little hope of recovery. The metaphor most often used in the report was that “we failed to acknowledge the elephant in the room," referring to what many view as the momentous decision by the 74th General Convention (2003) to consent to Robinson’s consecration.

hopeanglican.us/walkingapart/tiki-index.php

Here's a good example. Notice the obsession with homosexuals in the church -- I should have included in addition to gay marriage, ordination of homosexual men and women in relationships - The parish that quoted this (not going to say which one) left as an entire congregation, about at which point on this timeline we were struggling with ordination issues, that now have moved on to marriage issues. I attended this church in 1997, and asked around at coffee hour why they had left. I asked about 5 people why they were no longer "Episcopalian", and they all gave ordination of homosexuals in relationships as a primary reason.

It's not that I don't think homosexuality is a valid issue to be discussed, just that this timeline mentioned Bishop Spong ordaining a homosexual, but did not mention him denying the Resurrection, for example. I find it odd.

We also have entire congregations joining the Catholic Church, nytimes.com/2012/01/02/us/catholic-church-unveils-order-for-ex-episcopalians.htm?pagewanted=all, and although the article mentions ordination of women as a reason for leaving, it also mentions homosexuality as a key issue, and as the Episcopal Church has been ordaining women since I think the 70's, I'm guessing homosexuality is the bigger push. In any case, departures from major doctrine are not mentioned, like this one
christianexaminer.com/Articles/Articles%20Jul09/Art_Jul09_32.html.

Hope that all makes it clearer -- I tried to give examples without saying where I live, I can't say as much as I want to, but maybe those links will help you understand how I have this perspective.


#12

[quote="Conor7, post:9, topic:288773"]
Can you site your sources, please? I would be curious to read more about this because it hasn't been my experience. I think it would be inaccurate to say "people have left the Episcopal Church in droves over gay marriage." Yet, that is not to say that there hasn't been some major controversy and debate, and yes, parishioners have left.

[/quote]

I know some have left. But I've been told by an Episcopal priest that her diocese has experienced very little dissention and no exodus of churches whatsoever over gay issues. Another relayed this story to me. She said yrs ago a gentleman approached her about the ordination of the gay Episcopal bishop Gene Robinson in NH. He said he had left the church over it. She asked if he believed in one God and in Jesus. When he said yes, she said so do I. And that just because we differ on homosexuality does not mean we can not worship together and be part of the same family. The man has been at church every Sunday since. I thought that was a nice way to look at worship. Afterall family members of course do not always agree on every issue.

But anyway, Conor, in your other post you mentioned the new Archbishop of Canterbury and the possibilty of changes but that one could only speculate. I know absolutely nothing about the new archbishop. Do you think there might be a point when the Episcopal Church and the Anglican Church in Canada, if they are more liberal as you said, might break away from the worldwide communion however?


#13

[quote="Nicea325, post:2, topic:288773"]
Has he explained the reasons for conversion?

[/quote]

We haven't discussed it. I haven't really spoken with him for awhile because he's been away at college and very busy. I know he recently went through a problem at school regarding being falsely accused of something, but I don't know the details. I also know he supports gay marriage and has always had a soft spot for Anglican liturgy and Byzantine iconography. Not sure why he decided on the Episcopals, though. Aren't they completely different from the Anglicans?

I think I'll talk to his mom about it, since we're also friends on Facebook. I don't think she'll mind, and I'd really like some answers. This is weird. :P


#14

[quote="twohearts14, post:13, topic:288773"]
Aren't they completely different from the Anglicans?

[/quote]

Conor already said, "Episcopalians are Anglicans. The Anglican Church is a worldwide communion of which the Episcopal Church is the US branch".


#15

[quote="twohearts14, post:13, topic:288773"]
We haven't discussed it. I haven't really spoken with him for awhile because he's been away at college and very busy. I know he recently went through a problem at school regarding being falsely accused of something, but I don't know the details. I also know he supports gay marriage and has always had a soft spot for Anglican liturgy and Byzantine iconography. Not sure why he decided on the Episcopals, though. Aren't they completely different from the Anglicans?

I think I'll talk to his mom about it, since we're also friends on Facebook. I don't think she'll mind, and I'd really like some answers. This is weird. :P

[/quote]

There are a lot of Anglican churches that have broken away from the Episcopal Church. There are 3 in our area alone. I guess you could say all Episcopalians are Anglican, but not all Anglicans are Episcopalian. A Episcopal Church that decides it believes the Creeds, but can no longer tolerate the liberal Episcopal Church will sometimes break off and become just Anglican. In a lot of cases, the Diocese then owns their building, (and vestments, chalice, tables and chairs for coffee hour, etc) and they are kicked out and have to find a new place to worship. They will often join one of the Anglican offshoots such as this one. anglicanchurch.net/?/main/page/about-acna which are generally very conservative.

If you see a church that just calls itself Anglican, it is very possible it was a conservative Episcopal Church at one time that broke off. There are more and more of them.


#16

[quote="Gwendolen, post:15, topic:288773"]
There are a lot of Anglican churches that have broken away from the Episcopal Church. There are 3 in our area alone. I guess you could say all Episcopalians are Anglican, but not all Anglicans are Episcopalian. A Episcopal Church that decides it believes the Creeds, but can no longer tolerate the liberal Episcopal Church will sometimes break off and become just Anglican.

[/quote]

There are also a lot that haven't. "Sometimes" is the keyword. I think too it might depend on the area.


#17

[quote="CMatt25, post:14, topic:288773"]
Conor already said, "Episcopalians are Anglicans. The Anglican Church is a worldwide communion of which the Episcopal Church is the US branch".

[/quote]

Not quite, but close.

GKC


#18

[quote="GKC, post:17, topic:288773"]
Not quite, but close.

GKC

[/quote]

"The Episcopal Church has members in the United States, as well as in Colombia, the Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Austria, Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Switzerland, Haiti, Honduras, Micronesia, Puerto Rico, Taiwan, Venezuela, and the Virgin Islands.

We strive to love our neighbors as ourselves and respect the dignity of every person.

The Episcopal Church is part of the worldwide Anglican Communion, and traces its heritage to the beginnings of Christianity."

episcopalchurch.org/page/i-am-episcopalian


#19

[quote="twohearts14, post:13, topic:288773"]
We haven't discussed it. I haven't really spoken with him for awhile because he's been away at college and very busy. I know he recently went through a problem at school regarding being falsely accused of something, but I don't know the details. I also know he supports gay marriage and has always had a soft spot for Anglican liturgy and Byzantine iconography. Not sure why he decided on the Episcopals, though. Aren't they completely different from the Anglicans?

I think I'll talk to his mom about it, since we're also friends on Facebook. I don't think she'll mind, and I'd really like some answers. This is weird. :P

[/quote]

Pardon my intrusion and assumptions,but your friends seems to be bording on "cafeteria" Christianity:

I like this church because it sees eye-to-eye with my personal beliefs.


#20

Was Anglican. Now the ACNA fills that role.

Episcopal membership has dropped by a third in the past few decades. There’s only so much you can put up as sham Christianity before people stop buying it. Our local episcopal “churches” regularly host sermons by imams and Buddhist monks, have bubble-blowing ceremonies on Pentecost, and in general have watered Christianity down to new age wishy-washy feel-good theology. if you don’t believe in the resurrection, or even think there is no afterlife and Jesus never really existed in a literal sense, TEC is for you.

What I don’t understand is why KJS is out vilifying those anglicans that leave TEC when it’s supposed to be all about openness and dialogue. And why she’s forcing congregations to give up their churches so TEC can have a bunch of empty churches lying around. (But they’re THEIR churches, darn it!).


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