My close friend is gay


#1

Being in the fashion industry I come across a lot of men who are gay and fashion desingers, makeup artists, or photographers.
One of my very close friends for years and years is one of them. He goes to Church on Sundays as well, is truly a friend everyone should have, is incredibly close to his family (and they know he is gay), loyal, caring, and is such a wonderful and sweet soul that sometimes I cry and think it is not fair that he is sinning because he was born this way.
I know many feel that they aren't "born that way" and that it is a "lifestyle they choose" but I just don't think that is so...not in ALL cases.
Ever since I was a child in Kindergarten I remember he was a very cute boy but there was something different about him (at that age I could never comprehend what homosexual was). Everyone knew he was different but as kids we didn't care. He was just another kid.
I don't see how a child who's not even 5 years old can choose that lifestyle. He must have been born that way. I know all people differ and some are just "experimenting" and in that case then YES I do believe they choose to do so and it is a sin but...
I guess this is the only issue I struggle understanding. It is very sad and heartbreaking to think my kind and sweet friend will possibly not go to Heaven. :(


#2

If your friend prays to God for help not to sin, he will go to Heaven

I was made to love money. Yet, I do not rob banks. I love chocolate but I refrain from eating 20 pounds of it at once (sin of gluttony)

Your friend has an extra cross in life to bear. He can pray to God for help in refraining from sexual activity. For all you know, he does pray yet falls every now and again. God will make the final judgement

CM


#3

[quote="runwaymodel, post:1, topic:228339"]
Being in the fashion industry I come across a lot of men who are gay and fashion desingers, makeup artists, or photographers.
One of my very close friends for years and years is one of them. He goes to Church on Sundays as well, is truly a friend everyone should have, is incredibly close to his family (and they know he is gay), loyal, caring, and is such a wonderful and sweet soul that sometimes I cry and think it is not fair that he is sinning because he was born this way.
I know many feel that they aren't "born that way" and that it is a "lifestyle they choose" but I just don't think that is so...not in ALL cases.
Ever since I was a child in Kindergarten I remember he was a very cute boy but there was something different about him (at that age I could never comprehend what homosexual was). Everyone knew he was different but as kids we didn't care. He was just another kid.
I don't see how a child who's not even 5 years old can choose that lifestyle. He must have been born that way. I know all people differ and some are just "experimenting" and in that case then YES I do believe they choose to do so and it is a sin but...
I guess this is the only issue I struggle understanding. It is very sad and heartbreaking to think my kind and sweet friend will possibly not go to Heaven. :(

[/quote]

There is an excellent article by David Prosen in the current issue LayWitness magazine, where he says he once described himself as "gay." He said this was a mistake. People who have same-sex attraction are neither born that way, nor choose to be that way. Both are wrong. Equally wrong is the notion that being "gay" is a "type" of person, such as male or female. It is not, by any stretch of the imagination. It is a type of gravely disordered behavior. He said we have only been trying to assign homosexuality as a "type" of person for the past 150 years. And this is incorrect.

See if you can get a copy of this article. It's very enlightening, and may help your friend.

God bless!

Scooby


#4

Being attracted to the same sex is not a sin. The desire is morally disordered. We should all acknowledge that every single human individual is born with disordered desires. These desires we call the 7 deadly sins: lust, pride, envy, gluttony, sloth, wrath and greed. Having these desires doesn’t send us to hell, but it is acting on those desires that lead us to sin. Sin comes from an archery term which means “to miss the mark.” We don’t get to Heaven through natural goodness. We are rather called to a divine perfection that is ultimately impossible for any of us to acheive by human merit. This is why we live a sacramental life and strive to completely give our entire lives to Christ. Its why we are called to die to self and thus to allow God to bring about a new creation in us. Thus our constant struggle with sin is our desire to preserve our natural selves and to satisfy our natural selves. We find we are in constant tension between our desire to please our natural selves and our desire to please God – especially when sometimes we only can identify what God doesn’t want for us, but not what he does want of us.

In regard to the 7 deadly sins, its important to acknowledge that they express themselves in individuals differently. Often we think of the sin of gluttony to be merely a person who is tempted to eat an excessive amount of food. However gluttony can also express itself through being overly picky with food as well. We often think of lust as simply a greed for physical sexual pleasure, but ultimately it is the drive that motivates us to divorce the purposes of sex from each other in order to pursue merely some or one of the purposes of sex. It thus motivates heterosexuals to contracept. It motivates couples who are not in a marital commitment to think their level of commitment is enough because all they want is to feel close to each other anyway. It can motivate individual sexual acts and in some in it misdirects their sexual feelings toward the wrong gender. But homosexuals aren’t special sinners. Make no mistake: the majority of the world is guilty of some form of sexual sin whether its masturbation, fornication, adultery, the use of contraceptives, etc. We should be concerned about everyone’s salvation and realize that salvation doesn’t come because we’re nice people. God doesn’t owe any of us Heaven. He gives it to us freely through His mercy. Our job is to humbly accept it. If we are too prideful in our thoughts of how righteous we are, at the moment of our deaths, we may refuse it because we are offended that with it comes a manditory acknowledgment that we don’t deserve it. If we think it is our right to go to Heaven, we will not end up there.

I recommend for reading CS Lewis’ “The Great Divorce” and “Mere Christianity.”


#5

Not robbing banks or eating 20 pounds of chocolate doesn’t really compare to refraining from sex for the rest of a person’s life. Is this really fair to ask of someone?


#6

[quote="runwaymodel, post:1, topic:228339"]
I know many feel that they aren't "born that way" and that it is a "lifestyle they choose" but I just don't think that is so...not in ALL cases.

[/quote]

you are confusing two things, the causes of the homosexual orientation--which no one has yet scientifically established--and lifestyle choices anyone one makes, no matter what their orientation to either remain chaste for their state in life, or to sin deliberately. Bear in mind that though he may affect a so-called "gay" manner that by itself does not indicate that he is sinning, that he embraces all aspect of the "lifestyle". It is urgent that Christians not judge people by outward appearance and mannerisms. It is also urgent that Christians regard all others they encounter with the charity of Christ, but also be a witness to life in Christ. We cannot condone or enable the sin of others, but neither can we accuse them and judge them.


#7

Ok, so you pointed out a false analogy. That’s good. That said, its a false analogy because most people would get sick before they ate 20 lbs of chocolate and people have other ways of accessing money than robbing banks. So yes, the analogy doesn’t fit.

However, I would say that indeed God does not call all people to marriage and thus not all people are called to be sexually active.


#8

I think most people are “called” to be sexually active. Almost everyone, married, single, young, old, gay, straight, has a natural sex drive. Do you honestly expect a person to torture himself by surpressing this for his entire life? Why not live for today? No one knows with 100% certainty what happens after a person dies.


#9

Thank you everyone for your answers. It makes me see this differently…

Your answer has been especially helpful, my dear. I am actually very hopeful now. For a long time I struggled with this but now I can see this issue much more clearly. :signofcross:

He does sin like a lot of people do and lust is usually the cause of it. I wish I could give him some of my virtue of chastity and he could give me some of his virtue of humility. Wouldn’t that be something? :thumbsup:


#10

Dear Runwaymodel.

I think everyone understands your compassion. However, I don't think you stance
is helping your friend who is gay.
In the tread (page 3-5) below I have written something about causes and treatment of
same sex attraction, and why telling a person he is simply gay and born that way
is a big disservice to another Catholic.

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=527502

Peace to you and God bless your effort to understand in order to properly
advice and help your friend.


#11

[quote="GraceDK, post:10, topic:228339"]
Dear Runwaymodel.

I think everyone understands your compassion. However, I don't think you stance
is helping your friend who is gay.
In the tread (page 3-5) below I have written something about causes and treatment of
same sex attraction, and why telling a person he is simply gay and born that way
is a big disservice to another Catholic.

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=527502

Peace to you and God bless your effort to understand in order to properly
advice and help your friend.

[/quote]

"Treatment" of same sex attraction is simply repression of a tendency that continues to exist in a stifled, unhealthy and often harmful form. It leads to self-hate and many psychological issues. For the love of God, do not recommend people to learn how to hate their ability to fall in love.


#12

[quote="freethinker83, post:8, topic:228339"]
I think most people are "called" to be sexually active. Almost everyone, married, single, young, old, gay, straight, has a natural sex drive. Do you honestly expect a person to torture himself by surpressing this for his entire life? Why not live for today? No one knows with 100% certainty what happens after a person dies.

[/quote]

No, sexuality is a beautiful thing according to Catholic faith, and therefore it must never be reduced to feel-good and something trivial and recreational.

All people have all kinds of drives and in the name of them people have justified everything from murder to polygamy.
Then there is something called virtue, which means you train your sensitive appetites to serve a higher purpose, your reasons dominates the flesh and not the other way around... eg. if you are prone look at a woman lustfully you train your own eye to focus on her whole as a person and not fantazise about her.
If you most of all want to not go to work in the morning, then you go anyway, although the feeling of laziness is universal.
If you are married and fall in love with another person, which happens to many, and it feels like the most natural thing to unite yourself with the that other person, you still have to respect your vows and stay faithful, even if your drives tell you that something else is "natural" or you believe that God doesn't exist and wont judge your behaviour

Thats what makes us different from the animals.

My population which consists largely of practical atheists have alot of problems with substance abuse, pornography-addiction, stds and abortions.. because they have been taught that its unnatural not instantly to gratify their urges, especially if these be sexual.

Why do I say all that? Well because the active gay lifestyle is very unhealthy and damaging to the ones that engage in it, whether there is a God or not. So let your compassion be based on knowlege.


#13

[quote="GraceDK, post:12, topic:228339"]
No, sexuality is a beautiful thing according to Catholic faith, and therefore it must never be reduced to feel-good and something trivial and recreational.

All people have all kinds of drives and in the name of them people have justified everything from murder to polygamy.
Then there is something called virtue, which means you train your sensitive appetites to serve a higher purpose, your reasons dominates the flesh and not the other way around... eg. if you are prone look at a woman lustfully you train your own eye to focus on her whole as a person and not fantazise about her.
If you most of all want to not go to work in the morning, then you go anyway, although the feeling of laziness is universal.
If you are married and fall in love with another person, which happens to many, and it feels like the most natural thing to unite yourself with the that other person, you still have to respect your vows and stay faithful, even if your drives tell you that something else is "natural" or you believe that God doesn't exist and wont judge your behaviour

Thats what makes us different from the animals.

My population which consists largely of practical atheists have alot of problems with substance abuse, pornography-addiction, stds and abortions.. because they have been taught that its unnatural not instantly to gratify their urges, especially if these be sexual.

Why do I say all that? Well because the active gay lifestyle is very unhealthy and damaging to the ones that engage in it, whether there is a God or not. So let your compassion be based on knowlege.

[/quote]

Comparing homosexual drive to murder is a bit of a stretch since one is victimless and the other is not. Being gay does not hurt gay people; it only seems to hurt some straight people who feel it is "icky." As far as polygamy goes I don't see anything wrong with it as long as all parties involved approve of it.

I would like to see actual reliable statistics that show atheists have more problems with substance abuse and stds than theists. I am an atheist and I certainly don't have problems with these things.

I agree that married people should respect their vows. I don't see how this relates to the OP's gay friend though.


#14

[quote="Smugleaf, post:11, topic:228339"]
"Treatment" of same sex attraction is simply repression of a tendency that continues to exist in a stifled, unhealthy and often harmful form. It leads to self-hate and many psychological issues. For the love of God, do not recommend people to learn how to hate their ability to fall in love.

[/quote]

Sure, if the psychologist is really bad and not out to help the client. But you can find bad stories when it comes to all treatments of diseases. You can hear of people who simply went to have their teeth done, and died in the dentists chair.

That in itself proves nothing about the effectiveness of good psychological counseling of people struggling with ssa who go to these therapists, because they wish to change and are not finding fulfillment in the gay life style but are only feeling worse and worse while engaging in self-destructive behaviours that many of them find repulsive but only do because they feel a compulsion to do it.

I'll quote just some lines of a testimony from a person who went through therapy: Its from a Eastern European man who is now married to a woman. He talks about how counseling helped him, although he was at first ridiculed by the gay community for wanting to seek the way of becoming heterosexual.

".. In this counseling relationship I experienced a lot of acceptance. Before that I didn't feel accepted... I always had the impression I was looking out of a window at the other boys. But emotionally I wasn't connected.
It's all about the question: what am I looking for in my homosexuality? And very often you find its non-sexual needs like acceptance and the feeling of belonging to your own gender group etc. Living out the homosexual feelings didn't touch these needs.
....Talking with my counselor about this I realised I was looking for maleness because I had never sufficiently internalised it, so in fact I had experienced the attraction for my own ideal self. ....The homosexual love is essentially a search for parenting. That is to say, a man is looking for his father's love through other men. Therefore the drive is one of reparation.
My whole life was circling around my sexuality but - particularly in having sex - I wasn't able to give really.
During counseling I was adviced to move into a flat with heterosexual men. At the beginning I found it frightening, I didn't come out of my room ... But I learned to get in touch with them. And after a while I started to feel one of them. They accepted me as a full man.... Before that I wasn't able to see other men as they really are. I thought: 'Oh they are all very strong and healthy and beautiful'.
Homosexuality was a way to get in touch with my own masculinity. But when I finally experienced myself as "one of the guys" I had less homo-erotic feelings towards them.
I realised I was anxious towards women. They were always good friends but I didn't see them as women... When I was a boy the relationship with my mother was much too close. When I forgave women (enmeshed mother/insecure attachment) I felt a seperation from women. I could then see them as women and they became interesting in a new way. Untill then I felt like a woman emotionally myself. Now they became different, and as humans we fall in love with that which is different from us.. In the end I didn't need men anymore to fill up my deficits..

Maybe you are not interested in taking seriously such sincere testimonies of people who have lived for years as integrated heterosexuals after having struggled first and lived out their ssa. But if you are truly interested in the well being of others, then please be open to this perspective.


#15

[quote="freethinker83, post:5, topic:228339"]
Not robbing banks or eating 20 pounds of chocolate doesn't really compare to refraining from sex for the rest of a person's life. Is this really fair to ask of someone?

[/quote]

Gee, I dunno. Ask those nuns who are still alive and kicking well into their 90s and even 100s. I see their obituaries, so obviously you have to catch one while she's still alive, but it seems that not only do they survive, they even live longer! :D


#16

[quote="3DOCTORS, post:15, topic:228339"]
Gee, I dunno. Ask those nuns who are still alive and kicking well into their 90s and even 100s. I see their obituaries, so obviously you have to catch one while she's still alive, but it seems that not only do they survive, they even live longer! :D

[/quote]

I never said that it had anything to do with longevity.


#17

[quote="freethinker83, post:8, topic:228339"]
I think most people are "called" to be sexually active. Almost everyone, married, single, young, old, gay, straight, has a natural sex drive. Do you honestly expect a person to** torture **himself by surpressing this for his entire life? Why not live for today? No one knows with 100% certainty what happens after a person dies.

[/quote]

It's amazing, given the fact that they are in a constant state of torture, that celibate people are able to accomplish the many things they do. Priests and religious run parishes, schools, hospitals, teach at universities, take mission trips, and on and on.

Celibate laypeople such as myself manage to get up and pursue a wide variety of careers and activities in the world. We're not writhing on the floor in agony 24/7 because we can't have sex.

Waterboarding is torture. Celibacy is not.

Celibacy may be difficult on a spectrum for different individuals, but there is help available for those who find it difficult. Some may genuinely have a very high libido and indeed may struggle and I'm not meaning to minimize this. But with others, it's due to conditioning that's ingrained in the culture, that they internalize into their minds. They make it into a monster and then they feed it, and guess what - what you feed, will grow and become stronger.


#18

[quote="3DOCTORS, post:17, topic:228339"]
It's amazing, given the fact that they are in a constant state of torture, that celibate people are able to accomplish the many things they do. Priests and religious run parishes, schools, hospitals, teach at universities, take mission trips, and on and on.

Celibate laypeople such as myself manage to get up and pursue a wide variety of careers and activities in the world. We're not writhing on the floor in agony 24/7 because we can't have sex.

Waterboarding is torture. Celibacy is not.

[/quote]

:thumbsup:


#19

[quote="3DOCTORS, post:17, topic:228339"]
It's amazing, given the fact that they are in a constant state of torture, that celibate people are able to accomplish the many things they do. Priests and religious run parishes, schools, hospitals, teach at universities, take mission trips, and on and on.

Celibate laypeople such as myself manage to get up and pursue a wide variety of careers and activities in the world. We're not writhing on the floor in agony 24/7 because we can't have sex.

Waterboarding is torture. Celibacy is not.

Celibacy may be difficult on a spectrum for different individuals, but there is help available for those who find it difficult. Some may genuinely have a very high libido and indeed may struggle and I'm not meaning to minimize this. But with others, it's due to conditioning that's ingrained in the culture, that they internalize into their minds. They make it into a monster and then they feed it, and guess what - what you feed, will grow and become stronger.

[/quote]

That is good for you that your celibacy helps you do good things in life. I am saying that people shouldn't be taught their desires are not moral and that they should remain celebate for those reasons. Being celibate by choice is different.


#20

Well that is the difference between a Christian worldview and that of a person who is atheist. We believe that many of our desires can be turned toward sin, if they don’t simply start out as sinful. We believe in original sin, so yes, many of our desires are NOT moral. In my case I would say most if not all of my desires, wants, etc. are not moral. I pray to become more like Jesus, but it is a struggle. Even St. Paul struggled greatly with his own lack of morality in actions…


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