My dads fiancee (shes born again) on grace and prayers to "idols"

my dad fiancee is born again.

she says she knows the bible, but she didnt know when the kjv was written, and that it was translated by catholics, and it wasnt written to necessarily start a new denomination of Christianity.

she thinks grace is a gift given to us by God. i think grace is how you act towards someone, or how God inspires us to act towards each other…so when the Bible says “through the grace of faith you will be saved” it means to me that without living the way your faith instructs you to live and doing good from the heart, not just doing good so you go to Heaven, you can have all the faith in the world, but without grace your in trouble. (look at MT 25:14-23 it shows even though that one servant had faith, his laziness in burying his talent and doing nothing was condemned)

and how do i respond to “just pray to God, i dont go to a dr and ask for the receptionist”
i just say “yeah but sometimes you call the dr and he cant see you, but the receptionist takes pity on your situation and fits you in”

HAHAA! I love that!

Sounds to me like you can hold your own in this situation.

How about you are both right.
First of all Grace is a complete and undeserved grace from God. This is what the Catachism teaches. What we do by our actions towards our fellow man is to open ourselves up to Gods grace and to properly act on graces that we receive. Once we receive and act on this grace God can and will give us more grace.

and how do i respond to “just pray to God, i dont go to a dr and ask for the receptionist” i just say “yeah but sometimes you call the dr and he cant see you, but the receptionist takes pity on your situation and fits you in”

I like your comeback. :thumbsup:
Frankly when people say that to me I say fine, go right ahead. I have no problem with that.
There is not one Catholic Dogma that requires anyone to pray to anyone other than God himself (in any one of the three persons). If praying for the intercession of a saint makes one uncomfortable then don’t do it.
Asking for the intercession of the saints is a widespread practice inthe Church and is mentioned in the mass, but in our private prayer life it is purely a matter of personal choice.

Hope some of that helps.

Peace
James

im reading the book of Mark, im highlighting everything i find interesting or that i can live by. im also highlighting every instance of evidence that faith alone is not enough.

so far i got (in the book of Mark, alone)
3:33-35
4:3-9
4:13-20 (which explains 4:3-9)
4:24-25

i know once i present this to her, shes gonna say “well Jesus saved many because they had faith” and i already prepared and answer for that: *no Jesus didnt save people, He healed those who have faith. He never said “now go off and do whatever you want just make sure to apologize in prayer for all your wrong doings before you die and youll be in Heaven.” Once He showed pitty on them, and once He showed them the way, it was up to them to continue on that path. He died for us so that path can be laid out, its up to us to walk it. But that also doesnt mean do good deeds so you hope you get into Heaven. Because doing good deeds JUST to get into Heaven isnt going to save you…if you do good things or graceful things to get into Heaven, but also because its how you truly in your heart want to live your life because reguardless of Heaven or hell, i.e.- you feel good after doing a gracious act because its in your nature then your ok.

so lets recap:
faith alone= your screwed

grace alone= doing graceful may get you some brownie points, but dont count on anything, especially if you just doing them to get to Heaven. you cant hide behind grace if you have no faith.

faith + grace= the golden ticket…practice what you preach!
*

thats what i got out of what i read so far that sheds any light onto faith vs faith and grace

james if this was a debate between a catholic and protestant that doesnt have HATRED toward the catholic church.

but she loathes the church. we dont get mad or yell at each other or anything like that.

Are you saying that even if you try to agree with her that she will disagree?
She is right in that Grace is receive from God as an undeserved Gift.
You are right in that we must act on that grace, in faith. “Faith without works is dead” (Epistle of James)

I assume she believe in “Faith alone” and it sounds like she believes in OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved).

My take on all of this is that it all stems from Love.
Jesus teaches us that "All of the Law and All of the Prophets are based on Love (Mt 22:36-40)
St Paul tells us that of the three great virtues of Faith Hope and Love, the Greatest is Love (1 Cor 13:13)

We receive Grace that we may Love God and our fellow man for the Love of God. We have faith in Christ because He showed us His Love by dying on the cross. We have Hope in God’s Love for us and act on that Love in our relations with others.

Peace
James

She *knows *the bible in what way? What does that even mean?

That she read it?

grace is a gift from God. God gave us the capacity to have faith, therefore it was his “grace of faith”.

Can we all get over this faith alone vs. faith and works argument? I really think the devil just wants us to get stuck on this. Jesus tells us to have faith, and also tells us to love each other as ourselves. So this is what we should do, because we love Him. If you do what He asks it doesn’t matter at what point you “are in”, does it???

And…i never called the Dr. directly, i call the receptionist. Sometimes I get in, sometimes not…:smiley:

Catholic Answers provides a great article about grace, here.

I truly don’t understand why we Catholics are accused of “faith and works.” This is mostly because when a non-Catholic says that Catholics view justification as “faith and works” they almost always mean just works which is not Catholic teaching at all. This argument should be called “faith alone vs faith through love,” if this were the name of the argument there would be many more people on the “Catholic” side because that’s how many people unknowingly view it. I would venture to say that really the only people who openly and solidly hold to absolutely faith alone are very hard-core Evangelicals and Fundamentalists who are more about converting than actually living the Christian faith . . . but these are just my speculations.

so God gave us grace, as a gift.

its up to us to use it.

It is up to us to respond to that grace, In Love - Yes.

Peace
James

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