My first Tridentine Latin Mass (Tridentine Latin - Missa Cantata)

and I must say, I was not entirely impressed. Things I didn’t like…the priest always had his back to the people. When the priest was consecrating the bread and wine, no one could see it as his back blocked the view. Just seemed like a total disconnect from the Altar to the pews, and really didn’t feel part of the mass. Also, making things worse, there was no singing. I didn’t have a translated sheet so that I would know what was being said in Latin, so that admittingly made things worse.

Things I liked…recieving communion in my mouth while kneeling, felt much more reverent. The homily was excellent, although I know that has nothing to do with the type of mass offered. The people dressed more appropriately as I feel should be on Sunday at mass, respectful. They had confessions before each mass which is soooo convienient, rather than in my local church, only on Saturdays at 4pm or 8pm, thus making sure the faithful have an opportunity to rid themselves of Mortal Sin so as to recieve our lord in the blessed sacrament. We always knelt when the tabernacle was open, and there was a lot of kneeling, very respectful.

Now, I understand that there are many people that prefer this type of mass as opposed to the one we currently have. My question is, why? The things I didn’t like are pretty big obstacles for me, and kind of turned me off a bit.

Now, I found another church down the street that is celebrating the Sung Novus Ordo Latin mass. What is the difference between that and the Tridentine mass? What is the current universal version of the mass called?

Thanks.

Dear Superstar905,

Hello and nice to meet you. :slight_smile:

Did your priest at the Latin Mass come down from the altar at the beginning for Aspergers where he goes down the aisles and sprinkles the people with holy water? This happens at every Latin Mass I attend, so maybe it’s easier for me to feel a connection between the pew and the altar that you instead feel lacking.

Personally, I am quite content to have the priest’s back to me, because I know he is concentrating and focusing intently on God … the better to call down God’s blessings on me so that I may benefit from his profoundly reverent prayer in a deep and rich manner.

Though I’ve studied Latin in high school, when I attend Latin Mass, I often don’t hear all the words clearly, but simply happen to be the kind of person who is not bothered by this. I also prefer not to follow along in the book. Having been to many an English-language Mass, I understand what’s going on. And I am simply so refreshed and rested by simply BEING at the Latin Mass, just feeling saturated in a rich oxygen of holiness that I don’t as easily feel at an English Novus Ordo Mass.

As for seeing Jesus Truly Present in the Eucharist at Consecration, that’s a big deal to me, as you know if you’ve seen my posts lately on the “Latecomers to Mass” thread where I talk about going early to stake out an aisle seat so I can see, height-challenged though I am, the Raised Host instead of the back of the parishioner in front of me. At least at the Latin Mass I attend, the priest makes sure to raise the Host on high for all to see at Consecration, even while his back remains turned to us. I hope your priest similarly raises the Host up high enough for everyone to see? Personally, it doesn’t bother me to see someone’s back at Mass unless seeing their back physically interferes with my seeing Jesus. If you are having trouble seeing, then I can certainly understand your frustration!

As for the music, before 9/11, we alternated where one week it’d be a soft, spoken Latin Low Mass and the next week a majestically sung Latin High Mass with Gregorian Chanting the whole way through. After 9/11, the priest ALWAYS makes sure we have the High Mass with singing … he’s made it top priority.

Everything that you liked at your Latin Mass also occurs at our Latin Mass.

Thanks for starting this thread so we can share our perspectives! :cool: :thumbsup:

~~ the phoenix

Did your priest at the Latin Mass come down from the altar at the beginning for Aspergers where he goes down the aisles and sprinkles the people with holy water? This happens at every Latin Mass I attend, so maybe it’s easier for me to feel a connection between the pew and the altar that you instead feel lacking.

Hi, and nice to meet U2. No, the priest never came down to sprinkle the people with Holy Water…then again, if this was at the start, I was still in line for confessions, so I’m not 100% about that.

Personally, I am quite content to have the priest’s back to me, because I know he is concentrating and focusing intently on God … the better to call down God’s blessings on me so that I may benefit from his profoundly reverent prayer in a deep and rich manner

I understand that. I just felt as if what he was doing was top secret, and it’s just much better IMHO that I see what he is doing with the water, wine, and bread. I don’t think that if facing the people he is concentrating any less on God though.

Though I’ve studied Latin in high school, when I attend Latin Mass, I often don’t hear all the words clearly, but simply happen to be the kind of person who is not bothered by this. I also prefer not to follow along in the book. Having been to many an English-language Mass, I understand what’s going on. And I am simply so refreshed and rested by simply BEING at the Latin Mass, just feeling saturated in a rich oxygen of holiness that I don’t as easily feel at an English Novus Ordo Mass.

now, the oxygen of holiness, I can totally see that. It just “felt” more reverent than the current mass (which I’m not sure if this is what is called the Novus Ordo??? still confused on this).

As for seeing Jesus Truly Present in the Eucharist at Consecration, that’s a big deal to me, as you know if you’ve seen my posts lately on the “Latecomers to Mass” thread where I talk about going early to stake out an aisle seat so I can see, height-challenged though I am, the Raised Host instead of the back of the parishioner in front of me. At least at the Latin Mass I attend, the priest makes sure to raise the Host on high for all to see at Consecration, even while his back remains turned to us. I hope your priest similarly raises the Host up high enough for everyone to see? Personally, it doesn’t bother me to see someone’s back at Mass unless seeing their back physically interferes with my seeing Jesus. If you are having trouble seeing, then I can certainly understand your frustration!

well, I know that no matter what mass I attend, the priest always raises the host high (and no, I’m not exactly a giant, lol) so no matter where you are in the Church, you can see this.

As for the music, before 9/11, we alternated where one week it’d be a soft, spoken Latin Low Mass and the next week a majestically sung Latin High Mass with Gregorian Chanting the whole way through. After 9/11, the priest ALWAYS makes sure we have the High Mass with singing … he’s made it top priority.

Everything that you liked at your Latin Mass also occurs at our Latin Mass.

Thanks for starting this thread so we can share our perspectives! :cool: :thumbsup:

ok, now I’m a little confused. I thought that I was going to hear music, the Gregorian chanting, etc…so I guess I went to a Latin Low Mass?

I’m glad to share my experience. I know there are others who can relate I’m sure.

[quote=Superstar905]Now, I found another church down the street that is celebrating the Sung Novus Ordo Latin mass. What is the difference between that and the Tridentine mass? What is the current universal version of the mass called?Thanks.
[/quote]

The Novus Ordo is the new mass. The sung NO may very well be the new mass, but sung, and in latin, and done ad orientem. Please refer to this topic, which may be what you’re talking about.

[quote=Superstar905]Hi, and nice to meet U2. No, the priest never came down to sprinkle the people with Holy Water…then again, if this was at the start, I was still in line for confessions, so I’m not 100% about that.

I understand that. I just felt as if what he was doing was top secret, and it’s just much better IMHO that I see what he is doing with the water, wine, and bread. I don’t think that if facing the people he is concentrating any less on God though.

now, the oxygen of holiness, I can totally see that. It just “felt” more reverent than the current mass (which I’m not sure if this is what is called the Novus Ordo??? still confused on this).

well, I know that no matter what mass I attend, the priest always raises the host high (and no, I’m not exactly a giant, lol) so no matter where you are in the Church, you can see this.

ok, now I’m a little confused. I thought that I was going to hear music, the Gregorian chanting, etc…so I guess I went to a Latin Low Mass?

I’m glad to share my experience. I know there are others who can relate I’m sure.
[/quote]

Sounds like you went to a Low Mass. See if they offer a High Mass and check it out – that’s where you’ll get the Asperges, Gregorian Chant, etc. Also - the Host is always elevated at the Consecration, Low or High Mass.

[quote=RobNY]The Novus Ordo is the new mass. The sung NO may very well be the new mass, but sung, and in latin, and done ad orientem. Please refer to this topic, which may be what you’re talking about.
[/quote]

Hi Rob, I had seen that thread however, since the Priests back was to the people, I thought that it was the Tridentine mass.

Traditionally the preists back is to the people Throughout the history of the Church prayer has been said to the east. The eastern Catholic preists still face east, which is with their back to the people. The preist facing the people is a new thing.

[quote=Superstar905]Hi Rob, I had seen that thread however, since the Priests back was to the people, I thought that it was the Tridentine mass.
[/quote]

Yeah, I might have thought that too, but once I understood the idea of ad orientem, it made more sense. In fact, I daresay I’d enjoy a solemn Novus Ordo more than a Tridentine, although I’ve attended neither. :stuck_out_tongue: I am not one who thinks the NO is the devil incarnate. :wink:

-Rob

[quote=Superstar905]Also, making things worse, there was no singing.
[/quote]

I just don’t understand how people can attend a Tridentine Mass and not sing the music that has pride of place in the Latin Rite, which is Gregorian chant. It seems like a total disconnect to me to do the one and not the other.

That’s great the you attended a Tridentine Mass superstar. I understand some of your confusion since the Tridentine and novus ordo mass are two entirely different masses. The litergy and procession of the masses are totally different. I encourage you to attend more than one Tridentine Mass and read all you can about the old mass and trust me you will learn to love it as I have and wonder why Vatican II would ever want to abolish it.

Dominus Vobiscum

[quote=Latin Catholic]…and wonder why Vatican II would ever want to abolish it.

[/quote]

Did they?

For the last time, the priest is not facing “back of the people”. :rolleyes: It is called ad orientem. He is facing east. It is the sacrificial position. God the Son is being offered to God the Father. That is why the priest faces that way. He is offering the Son to the Father.

It is not “back to the people”. It is called Ad Orientem. Drill it in your head.

[quote=VociMike]Did they?
[/quote]

Oh, yes. They did. That’s why the NO became the normative Mass of the Latin Church.

Sad to say…

[quote=Iohannes]For the last time, the priest is not facing “back of the people”. :rolleyes: It is called ad orientem. He is facing east. It is the sacrificial position. God the Son is being offered to God the Father. That is why the priest faces that way. He is offering the Son to the Father.

It is not “back to the people”. It is called Ad Orientem. Drill it in your head.
[/quote]

Ad Orientem, Ad Orientem, Ad Orientem, Ad Orientem, Ad Orientem, Ad Orientem, Ad Orientem. Alright i’m good, thanks for the advice!

http://www.unavoce.org/ambrosian_rite14.jpg

[quote=Freeway4321]Ad Orientem, Ad Orientem, Ad Orientem, Ad Orientem, Ad Orientem, Ad Orientem, Ad Orientem. Alright i’m good, thanks for the advice!

http://www.unavoce.org/ambrosian_rite14.jpg
[/quote]

:banghead: I WANT TO GO! :crying:

[quote=Scotty PGH]Sounds like you went to a Low Mass. See if they offer a High Mass and check it out – that’s where you’ll get the Asperges, Gregorian Chant, etc. Also - the Host is always elevated at the Consecration, Low or High Mass.
[/quote]

Scotty, I was so glad to see you reply to this thread. You’re one of the best people to answer questions for newcomers to the Tridentine Rite. :slight_smile:

Superstar, I’m fairly new to the Tridentine Rite myself. IMHO, I think you are suffering from a shock to the system. My husband went through something similar, but he was not cynical about it. He just is slower than me to adapt to it. I agree with Scotty that you surely attended a low mass. Hooo boy, that is a bewildering experience for a first timer!

I was introduced to the Tridentine rite last Holy Week when I was invited to sing. For me, it was a thrill from beginning to end, I was actually giddy. It was a dream come true. (I was pretty cynical from some bad experiences with liberal, irreverent parishes). Although, I must admit that I felt deeply ashamed that I didn’t know what was going on. THIS is how the church worshipped for over 2000 years! THIS is the actual, true, organic mass, as it came to exist naturally, from the times of the apostles, through the days of teh early Roman martyrs, and the centuries until roughly almost 40 years ago. And I, lifelong devoted Catholic, didn’t have a clue! I was so ashamed! Yet, it was heaven, and I felt I’d finally found my home. My husband and I just joined the Latin Mass Community here in Pittsburgh, and again, I feel like I’ve found my home. However, to one who has only ever known the Novus Ordo rite, it does NOT come naturally. As a musician, I was aware of the ‘structure’ of the mass parts, but it never made sense to me in my music history classes. Now it makes sense! Parts of the mass that I’d never witnessed before in worship now had their place. Bit by bit, piece by piece, it’s almost like being an amnesiac who is regaining their memory. Glimmers of childhood masses are returning to my memory (watching my mother receive at the altar rail, for example).

I encourage you to give it another chance. Please try attending a High Mass, preferably with someone who is familiar with it. Our community has wonderful missals that explain lots in the margins. I must say, though, that the singing won’t necessarily help you to navigate, as the priest says many of his prayers almost silently on the altar. I started a thread a few weeks ago called “Latin Mass for Dummies”. (sorry, I don’t know how to link to it from here). In it the other posters made some great suggestions of books to help the newcomer to navigate through the rite. Following the priest’s gestures, when the bells are rung, when they cense the altar, etc, all help you know what is going on.

I don’t know about other Latin Mass communities, but in ours, the mass is incredibly reverent. In my experience, I’ve never been to an NO mass as reverent as the Tridentine in our diocese. The whole entire mass is about CHRIST! There isn’t an extraneous second to the entire liturgy. Nothing superfluous, nothing over simplified, nothing distracting. I have to give incredible credit to the parishioners, because their reverence, piousness, modesty and pure focus on the Lord and awe in His presence are contagious, and a grace for anyone who joins them. I thank God for the rare priviledge of being able to worship Him in this ancient liturgy.

Please don’t give up. Once you gain some familiarity, I feel quite certain that you will embrace this liturgy. You were called this far, weren’t you? :wink:

[quote=Dropper]Oh, yes. They did. That’s why the NO became the normative Mass of the Latin Church.

Sad to say…
[/quote]

Did Vatican Council II mandate the Novus Ordo?

[quote=Iohannes]For the last time, the priest is not facing “back of the people”. :rolleyes: It is called ad orientem. He is facing east. It is the sacrificial position. God the Son is being offered to God the Father. That is why the priest faces that way. He is offering the Son to the Father.

It is not “back to the people”. It is called Ad Orientem. Drill it in your head.
[/quote]

ok, easy there lohannes…for your information, he was actually facing the North.

[quote=Superstar905]ok, easy there lohannes…for your information, he was actually facing the North.
[/quote]

Even if he was, he was facing Liturgical East. Toward our Savior.

[quote=Mummybee]Scotty, I was so glad to see you reply to this thread. You’re one of the best people to answer questions for newcomers to the Tridentine Rite. :slight_smile:

Superstar, I’m fairly new to the Tridentine Rite myself. IMHO, I think you are suffering from a shock to the system. My husband went through something similar, but he was not cynical about it. He just is slower than me to adapt to it. I agree with Scotty that you surely attended a low mass. Hooo boy, that is a bewildering experience for a first timer!

I was introduced to the Tridentine rite last Holy Week when I was invited to sing. For me, it was a thrill from beginning to end, I was actually giddy. It was a dream come true. (I was pretty cynical from some bad experiences with liberal, irreverent parishes). Although, I must admit that I felt deeply ashamed that I didn’t know what was going on. THIS is how the church worshipped for over 2000 years! THIS is the actual, true, organic mass, as it came to exist naturally, from the times of the apostles, through the days of teh early Roman martyrs, and the centuries until roughly almost 40 years ago. And I, lifelong devoted Catholic, didn’t have a clue! I was so ashamed! Yet, it was heaven, and I felt I’d finally found my home. My husband and I just joined the Latin Mass Community here in Pittsburgh, and again, I feel like I’ve found my home. However, to one who has only ever known the Novus Ordo rite, it does NOT come naturally. As a musician, I was aware of the ‘structure’ of the mass parts, but it never made sense to me in my music history classes. Now it makes sense! Parts of the mass that I’d never witnessed before in worship now had their place. Bit by bit, piece by piece, it’s almost like being an amnesiac who is regaining their memory. Glimmers of childhood masses are returning to my memory (watching my mother receive at the altar rail, for example).

I encourage you to give it another chance. Please try attending a High Mass, preferably with someone who is familiar with it. Our community has wonderful missals that explain lots in the margins. I must say, though, that the singing won’t necessarily help you to navigate, as the priest says many of his prayers almost silently on the altar. I started a thread a few weeks ago called “Latin Mass for Dummies”. (sorry, I don’t know how to link to it from here). In it the other posters made some great suggestions of books to help the newcomer to navigate through the rite. Following the priest’s gestures, when the bells are rung, when they cense the altar, etc, all help you know what is going on.

I don’t know about other Latin Mass communities, but in ours, the mass is incredibly reverent. In my experience, I’ve never been to an NO mass as reverent as the Tridentine in our diocese. The whole entire mass is about CHRIST! There isn’t an extraneous second to the entire liturgy. Nothing superfluous, nothing over simplified, nothing distracting. I have to give incredible credit to the parishioners, because their reverence, piousness, modesty and pure focus on the Lord and awe in His presence are contagious, and a grace for anyone who joins them. I thank God for the rare priviledge of being able to worship Him in this ancient liturgy.

Please don’t give up. Once you gain some familiarity, I feel quite certain that you will embrace this liturgy. You were called this far, weren’t you? :wink:
[/quote]

Thanks for your insights. I have not found a High Mass yet in Toronto. I just want to be clear, that in no way do I consider the current normative form of the mass (I’m guessing called the Novus Ordo) to be any less valid, just different. One thing I must say though, is that from what I’ve read, the Tridentine Mass is not the same mass practiced in the times of the Apostles. It has developed throughout the early Church: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tridentine_Mass

Thanks again, I certainly will revisit this mass, as i do feel somewhat drawn to it. I need to understand what is happening and what is being said though, so I will have to learn the latin parts.

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