I recently heard that this is from a psalm, a psalm that actually ends in triumph.
Not being able to quote chapter and verse, I wonder if any of you can lead me?
Also, I was told that a Jewish practice (in Jesus’ time) was that the rabbi would give the first line of a psalm, which the congregation would then recite in it’s entirety. This was what Christ was doing when he began that psalm, and it was to give hope to those at the foot of the Cross, and that He certainly was not despairing (for lack of a better word).
Have any of you heard this before, and is there any place I can get corroboration of this?
I recently heard that this is from a psalm, a psalm that actually ends in triumph.
It’s Psalm 22. See nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/psalms/psalm22.htm for the whole thing.
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel. a]
4 In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:
8 "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me **(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=psalm%2022;&version=31;#fen-NIV-14220b”)] in the dust of death.
16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced c] my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.
19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save d] me from the horns of the wild oxen.
22 I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.
23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.
25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you e] will I fulfill my vows.
26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.
29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord. 31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn—
for he has done it.
As has been said, psalm 22. But Jesus quotes it because of more than the fact that it ends in triumph. If you read the text (as posted above) you will find that psalm 22 is a prophecy about the crucifixion of the Christ. In essense, when Jesus quoted that line, the scribes and pharisees knew exactly what He was talking about. Knowing what He was refering to, the people could not help but recognize what had been done.
The Gospels don’t agree on what Jesus’ last words were.
The fact that different writers chose to emphasized different words doesn’t appear to be disagreement. One expects that He said all of them, and maybe more. Each writer stressed certain themes in his rendition of the Gospel and selected incidents which expressed those themes. Note that the forgiveness of the Good Thief in Luke, echoes Luke’s theme of forgiveness shown in the Prodigal Son.
And neither do witnesses in a criminal case usually agree on precise wordings or sequences of events either - and they’re usually not giving their account twenty years or more after the event!
Not to mention two of the Gospel writers (Luke and Mark) were writing second-hand as well, not having been Apostles, but rather followers of them.
actually, most scholars think only one of the gospels was actually written by its namesake and the other three were written under psuedonyms.
However, there is also the other consideration: different people standing in different locations or present at different times might not have heard EVERYTHING Jesus said…
or they may have just made up his last words and not heard anything he said from the cross. If we are going to say that at least two of the gospels were written by other people 20 years after events, and therefore what they report is mere conjecture, then why are they included in the christian bible? It must be for a reason that has nothing to do with a factual recounting of the life of Jesus.
Ever heard of the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? The primary author of Scripture is God according to Catholic dogma. So there’s no problem unless you want to make it out to be a totally human work–which of course someone who doesn’t want to become Christian will try to do.
Anyway, here is a great book by St. Robert Bellarmine on the seven things said by Jesus on the Cross.
There is also a protestant error that is common about this verse. Failing to recognize that Jesus was using it to point toward the prophesy where the line originates, some say that, in that moment, Jesus was separated from the Father because he had all of our sins on Him, and that God turned away from Him because of that. This is an error because it denies the divine nature of Christ, who could not turn his back on his own self!
Ive heard the protestant intepretation too and it always put me off. However, could it be possible that since Jesus did take on all of our sins since he is the sacrifical lamb, could we say that he felt what it was like to be seperated and the suffering and the pain of sin but that he was not actually seperated from god because he was divine in nature. in other words once he took on our sins on the cross, could the feeling of seperation of god been simulated for him but he wasnt actually seperated from the divine?
Indeed I think you are right. In his humanity, I think He experienced most fully how the since he bore for us separate from God, and was filled with grief, as the psalm he quoted indicates.
So how many years after creation did Moses sit down to pen the first pages of Genesis? Less than 20 I hope or all is lost!
Theo 451, Christian Emergence:thumbsup:
and to note: the protestant interpretation is hellaciously wrong. There is NEVER a time when Christ was seperated from His divine nature and that is NOT what He was referring to with that line.
For another note: I said the gospels weren’t written by the people of the names used… I never said the gospels weren’t penned by people who were either there or recording speech from people who had been there. in fact, a lot of the gospels borrow certain bits from the gospel of John as well.
[quote=Trelow]So how many years after creation did Moses sit down to pen the first pages of Genesis? Less than 20 I hope or all is lost!
Can I second that emotion?
Why, though do you say that? Mark traveled with Peter for many years. I get the feeling that at least once or twice he heard the account of Christ’s Crucifixion, as it does tend to play a major role in His Plan of Salvation.
Its making me wonder about the veracity of the Hebrew Scriptures…
In fact, I think I am pitching the whole bilble, Hebrew and NT.
I will be much safer that way.
Because I will still have the teaching authority Jesus set up.
That same teaching authority declares Holy Scripture to be inspired by God–to be truly God’s word. Far from being safer, you’re anathema if you reject the books of the Bible. Read this decree from the Council of Trent:
I hear them at Mass. Big whip.
I am only rejecting them based on Valke’s very enlightening post.
I say he/she is right and none of the scriptures can be trusted.