My latest discussion with a Jehovah's Witness missionary!

So I’ve been talking with a Jehovah’s Witness missionary once a week for several months now, and I’ve had great success, the way things are going, I might convert him!

This last discussion was about the Trinity, and in particular 1 Cor 8:6 and Rom 11:36.

1 Cor 8:6:
Yet to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Rom 11:36:
For of him, and by him, and in him, are all things: to him be glory for ever. Amen.

At first you might think 1 Cor 8:6 is against the Trinity, but I used it to support it! Here’s how… I reasoned that if ‘one God, the Father’ means the Father alone is God, then ‘one Lord, Jesus Christ’ means Christ alone is Lord. But then I asked what Deut 10:17 ‘the Lord your God is Lord of lords’ meant. I concluded that if the Father is both God and Lord, the Son could be both God and Lord. He didn’t disagree to this.

Here’s the kicker! I drew a connection to the Greek versions.

1 Cor 8:6:
ἀλλ’ ἡμῖν εἷς θεὸς ὁ πατήρ ἐξ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς εἰς αὐτόν καὶ εἷς κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστός δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς δι’ αὐτοῦ

Rom 11:36:
**ὅτι ἐξ αὐτοῦ καὶ δι’ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν τὰ πάντα αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας ἀμήν **

This is important because of their beliefs. They believe that Jehovah is the Creator, who only directly created Michael the Archangel (the pre-incarnate Jesus), and Michael is the Master Worker, who created everything else.

I reasoned, if in 1 Cor 8:6, ἐξ means the Father is the Creator and δι’ means the Son is the Master Worker, wouldn’t in Rom 11:36 ἐξ and δι’ mean God is both the Creator and Master Worker, showing Father and Son are both one God.

He had no answer to this for the past 5 weeks in a row, and this past week, I asked him about it, and he said ‘let’s leave this aside’. I asked him to write to the WatchTower, he refused. I did this 5 times in the past conversation alone, each time he refused.

Anyway, I felt like posting this, because it is a good argument to use against the Jehovah’s Witnesses if they ever come a knockin’.

I have several Jehovah’s Witnesses who come by occasionally. I simply ask them who Jesus is. I always go to John 20 :27,28:

Joh 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing.”
Joh 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

If the miss this clear declaration of the divinity of Christ they will “miss the boat”. If they get that wrong they are in trouble.

Your argument one the Trinity is good.

Great! Good Job and God Bless you for your efforts. Pray to the Holy Spirit for direction and wisdom in dealing with the JWs. By the way, ask him to explain what Thomas meant when he said “My Lord and my God”. The JW stock answer is that Thomas used that as an expression of surprise, like we say “Oh, My God.” The thing is that Thomas was an Orthodox Jews who would consider it blasphemy to say anything like that. He meant what he said. Also ask why Jesus accepted worship when worship belongs to God alone.

Please continue and keep us advised of your progress. Once again, God Bless. Shalom haMeshiach.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem

originally posted by William Pitts
Joh 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing.”
Joh 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

Heads up…jws interpret this passage as Thomas being amazed and his declaration of “My Lord and My God!” as being the same as us exclaiming “Oh My God!!” at, perhaps, you observing the neighbor’s dog running over to your yard to do his business. See what I mean?
I like that you used the word REASON to describe your discussions with this jw. They love that word. ;They believe that they can convert anyone to their way of thinking if the potential victim (uh…convert) is reasonable.
Anyhoo, I congratulate you on your efforts. I am surprised this jw hasn’t shown up at your door with an elder to “straighten you out though. :smiley:

Might discuss the trinitarian statements which John recorded in Gospel 14:7;

Jesus said to his disciples:

“If you know me, then you will also know my Father.

From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

Philip said to Jesus,

“Master, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.”

Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you for so long a time
and you still do not know me, Philip?

Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.

How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me?

The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own.

The Father who dwells in me is doing his works.

Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me,

or else, believe because of the works themselves.

Amen, amen, I say to you,

whoever believes in me will do the works that I do,

and will do greater ones than these,

because I am going to the Father.

And whatever you ask in my name, I will do,

so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it.”

"If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate 8 to be with you always,

the Spirit of truth, 9 which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it.

But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.

I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. 10

In a little while the world will no longer see me, but you will see me, because I live and you will live.

On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me and I in you.

Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And

whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him."

usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john14.htm#v7

Glorthac,

The Catechism might also be helpful for your discussions:

scborromeo.org/ccc/index/t.htm

Trinity

as the central mystery of the faith, 232, 234, 237, 261
divine economy as the common work of the three divine persons, 257-60
family as image of the Trinitarian communion, 2205
Filioque, 246-48, 264
God one and three, 202
“hypostasis” or person, 252
liturgy as the work of, 1077-109
notion of substance, 252
prayer as communion with, 2655
presence of Trinity in man, 260
“theology” and “economy,” 236
unity of the Trinity and the unity of the Church, 813
See also Christ; Father; God; Holy Spirit

divine persons in the Trinity, 252
consubstantial, 242, 253
distinct from one another, 254, 267
in unity, 255, 689

expression of the Trinity
articulating the dogma, 251
in Baptism, 233, 265
in the liturgy, 249, 1066

Revelation of God as Trinity
the Father, 238, 240
the Holy Spirit, 243-48
the Son, 240, 242
of the Trinity, 244, 684, 732

244: Jn 14:26; The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name–he will teach you everything and remind you of all that (I) told you.

    Jn 15:26; "When the Advocate comes whom I will send 12 you from the Father, the Spirit of truth that proceeds from the Father, he will testify to me. 
    
    Jn 16:14; He (the Holy Spirit) will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you. 

    Jn 7:39  He said this in reference to the Spirit that those who came to believe in him were to receive. There was, of course, no Spirit yet, 15 because Jesus had not yet been glorified. 

684: Jn 17:3. Now this is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

732: Acts 2:33-36. Exalted at the right hand of God, 6 he received the promise of the holy Spirit from the Father and poured it forth, as you (both) see and hear.

I would like to add that on the revelation, description, and discussion of the Trinity, the Early Church Fathers should be referenced. The ECF had to go into detail to describe it to the Jewish and pagan converts. For instance, St. Augustine wrote 15 volumes on the Trinity alone. Not all of the ECFs did the same, but the all did take the pains to describe ( to convince converts ) the true and actual existence of the Trinity. Shalom haMeshiach.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross

Shalom Aleichem

All these wonderful references are well and good but lost on any jw. They refuse to read any literature but the watchtower. ANY other book or literature is seen as being satanically influenced and a personal attack on their “religion” by the satanic so-called “Christians”.
Try handing them a tract when they show up at your door. They are afraid to even touch it.
I f they make it known that they have read anything but their own stuff, they can be called before the congregation and humiliated by being put on what amounts to jw probation. If they sneak and read, they are told Satan will lead them away from the truth of jehovah.
One scary “religion.”

Funny but I have never had any Jehovah’s Witnesses come to my door in Utah.

Why is that? I don’t see them out at all.

Too much competition among those who knock upon doors. Or, maybe you’re just lucky. :smiley:

Yep, I know. I once “studied” with them ( talk about weird ). As for the ECF, I don’t mean for them to read and study, but for you to do so, so that you may be able to confront and explain to them their error and misunderstanding.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem

Acts 20:28 tells us God bought us with His own Blood. (their version puts ‘Son’ in parenthasese).

Titus three time calls God Savior and three times Jesus Savior.

Look up how many time Jesus allows worship; and how many in the NT that worshiped Him - the wisemen for example.

originally posted by Javl
I don’t mean for them to read and study, but for you to do so, so that you may be able to confront and explain to them their error and misunderstanding.

Oh. Ok. I didn’t quite get that. :o
I once “studied” with them too. That’s how I know how they think and operate.
I do pretty well at debating them. They always seem surprised that I know so much about them. :wink:

OK, no problemo…As far as they are concerned, I’m anathema and Satan’s tool. No JW will talk to me since I just about block them at every turn.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem

They come by here now and again. I think they’re around this area, maybe NY. :shrug:

Do mormons come by out there? I have never seen them here. Though I hear they go to NYC which I find amazing. I would love to film that. :smiley:

Althou I did quote from the Catechism, all references directly quote the Gospels.

Yes, there are Mormon missionaries everywhere here in Utah.
I see them riding down the street on their bikes, eating in restaurants, shopping at WalMart…everywhere!

The competition is stiff!

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