My problem with "Tradition"...


#1

I’ll start by saying that if any of you want to promote your Tridentine agenda, stop posting. The more you post, the more people are running from Tridentineism.

My problem with the Tridentine Mass is 1. it’s make believe. You’re pretending the Vatican 2 liturgical reforms, which were mandatory and obligatory, just never happened. Fantasy land. 2) You wouldn’t be going to the Tridentine Mass unless you had a problem with the regular Mass. And if you have a problem with a Mass a council and a pope approved and made mandatory, you have a serious problem.

I recommend for Lent you stop being divisive and rejoin the mainstream.


#2

I’m going to answer you from a strict historical perspective.

Make believe. No, I’m not remembering what I went through as a teenager in the 60s. I don’t think that what was envisioned in the 60s as liturgical reform is what has happened some 40 + years down the line. I have a perfectly reverent NO cathedral parish which I attend. I’ve sung as a member of the cathedral choir for over 18 years.

On the other hand, I have have been an eye witness to the abuses which came after V II. When the baby got thrown out with the bathwater.

I don’t think that I or anyone else are asking you to attend a TLM. If you’re happy with the NO and the muppet music which passes for sacred music, be my guest. Pardon me, but your “problem with “Tradition”” has absolutely no bearing on the problem because if “tradition” walked out and bonked you on the head, you would have no frame of reference to even judge what tradition is or was.

The TLM was the Mass of Holy Mother Church for a thousand years. Who are you to assault that which our ancestors held in highest reverence ?


#3

The more you post, the more people are running from Tridentineism.

No. I think the internet is one of the big reasons it is growing. Word of mouth and books wouldn’t preserve the past well enough, but the internet spreads the information, to young people especially, that there was a sudden and suspicious change.

My problem with the Tridentine Mass is 1. it’s make believe. You’re pretending the Vatican 2 liturgical reforms, which were mandatory and obligatory, just never happened.

Okay, first of all, Vatican II didn’t make any liturgical reforms. It “recommended” and “suggested” (very weak language) liturgical forms, that were later carried out by some commitee.

Those books were mandatory for a while, but the Pope has been very generous in allowing the old mass to be used again with permission (even whole societies of priests and religious orders are approved dedicated to the traditional latin rite).

Fantasy land. 2) You wouldn’t be going to the Tridentine Mass unless you had a problem with the regular Mass. And if you have a problem with a Mass a council and a pope approved and made mandatory, you have a serious problem.

Perhaps we just like the old mass better. Not that I have a problem with the new one. It’s not the new mass is bad, just the old mass is more good.

But, I will admit, I do have problems with the new mass (though, again, these are usually in comparison to the old) especially as preformed in America.

Saying that the bishops said it, so we should shut up and like it, is totally a wrong attitude, and frankly part of the centralized papolatry that keeps the Orthodox away, but which is so common among neocons. The hierarchy has made very imprudent decisions in the past, and people can push for reform (or retraction of stillborn reforms).

Plus, Pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI have acknowledged the traditionalist aspirations as valid and commendable, and approved ways to live out and promote their traditionalism.


#4

This is going to be a contentious subject, so please be extra careful to be charitable. Thank you.


#5

What is make believe and fantasyland are the liturgical dancers, clown masses, and the female altar servers that came as a result of Vatican II.

Take one of these “simplistic nobility” decorated churches and take Jesus off the cross and take the tabernacle away and what do you have? A protestant church.


#6

It’s obvious you don’t know much about the traditional Latin Mass or the Vatican 2 reforms otherwise you wouldn’t have these opinions.

I’d recommend for Lent that you read up on it before you start making such condescending remarks.


#7

I’m sorry, I really don’t see the point in posting in a Traditional forum stating your problems with Traditionalism and telling others if they have a differing opinion not to bother posting.

I don’t go into non-traditional forums, state that I have problems with their beliefs but then tell them before they even have the chance to discuss the issue that they are not welcome to post differing opinions…

And if you have a problem with a Mass a council and a pope approved and made mandatory, you have a serious problem.

You, just as everyone else, are perfectly entitled to your opinion. However, Just because one holds an opinion strongly, does not necessarily mean it automatically becomes a fact.

… and rejoin the mainstream.

I don’t even know where to begin with this statement. Demanding that others ‘rejoin the mainstream’ is a very closed minded and unevolved position to hold in my opinion. In other words, ‘do as the majority have decided is correct’ or you are not welcome? There are those of us who believe we were the mainstream, until it was hijacked and rerouted…

Not trying to be confrontational here at all… but I cannot see where the tone of your post is helpful to intelligent, respectful and valuable communication with others who may hold differing opinions…


#8

A very kind AMEN to you Sir, for assisting in expressing what needed to be expressed! :slight_smile:

May the Almighty bless you…and bless the originator of this post, in hopes she may soften her communication and open her mind just a wee bit :slight_smile:

Margaret


#9

The Tridentine Mass is a legitimate preference. The schismatic groups are a different matter. It is there you find the high-pressure recruitment. They will go right into a regular Tridentine Mass and sell you their story.

It is there you find the spirit of rebellion. It is okay to go against the Church, but doooon’t you dare go against them. They will tear you to pieces.

What these schismatic types don’t realize is their spiritual pride. It is one thing to dislike the method and the music, and another to insult those who attend. They fast for twelve hours before communion, but cannot mortify themselves not to insult the rest of us. I consider it every bit as derisive and sinful as the liberal factions, only in the other direction. It is a spiritual blindness that spreads like an infection.


#10

Couldn’t agree with you more :slight_smile:


#11

Tridentine Mass is make-believe?

Is this a joke!?! The Consecration fully takes place in that legitimate Rite of the Catholic Mass. Sounds like you think the Catholic Church started only after the Second Vatican Council…:eek:


#12

It is a spiritual blindness that spreads like an infection.

Nicely put… especially like your last sentence…


#13

The OP has no bearing, no mark upon which he or she could set their sights. I am old enough to have served as an altar boy during the Tridentine era and after. (I quit being an altar boy in 1968 because I was taller than Father and because, the Mass changed).

Read that again- the Mass changed. Oh, springtime in the church! So wonderful! Not! I was a teenager when the Mass changed. I was not a happy camper and I am not a happy camper to this day. I’m not alone with this!

I’m 55 years old and I do, most assertivlely, remember what Mass was like before V II. Now that brings about a dichotomy. There’s a whole bunch of us baby boomers who do indeed remember that HMC was different when we were kids.

We’re Catholics and history runs lke blood through our veins…

Good night, everyone!


#14

I like the altar cloth and sneakers.


#15

OK, I’m not a regular TLM attendee but this was not a well thought out or researched post. People are allowed to prefer either Mass and it hardly means that they are in “Fantasy Land” to do so. The Church has actually approved this. So are you saying that something the Church has approved is wrong? It’s also silly to assume that one has a problem with the “regular” Mass because they prefer to attend the Tridentine. I know several traditionalists who don’t have a problem with the Novus Ordo, they just prefer the TLM.


#16

As poor as the OP’s position IS (and it is a poor argument), so is it equally bad to make the assertion that liturgical dancers, clown masses, and female altar servers (the first two are abuses, the latter is, by definition, not) are a “result” of Vatican II.

Don’t let’s all start talking past one another in yet another thread.


#17

Show me pics where you see these in the TLM before Vatican II. See my above attachment. You will not find that nonsense before VII.


#18

Not necessary to promote the Tridentine agenda. The Latin Mass speaks for itself. It has been around since the 4th century (and maybe before then) and has promoted Catholicism wherever it went.

Ignore Vatican II. How is that possible? We get reminded of that all the time at the Indults.

And please don’t tell me what I need to give up for Lent. That’s between me and God. Just do your part.

Remember the Council of Trent:

Session 7

“CANON XIII.-If any one saith, that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn administration of the sacraments, may be contemned, or without sin be omitted at pleasure by the ministers, or be changed, by every pastor of the churches, into other new ones; let him be anathema.”

I suggest you look up the word “contemned.” The traditional Latin Mass was both received and approved and cannot be contemned by anyone. Got it?

The Novus Ordo was fabricated; it was never received. And don’t fall for that stuff about early days of the Church. That was Martin Luther’s argument.


#19

This is what “modernism” has done to the Holy Mass:

cathcon.blogspot.com/2007/02/mass-for-unbelievers.html

I am sickened.


#20

Correlation does not prove causation. None of this was called for by the Council, nor by HH Pope Paul VI of happy memory. If we can’t agree on that kind of stuff, we’re going to end up talking past one another.


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