My protestant friends


#1

Is there a “common reason” for the Protestant churches? A common foundation?

God Bless,
Pat


#2

[quote="PJM, post:1, topic:273969"]
Is there a "common reason" for the Protestant churches? A common foundation?

God Bless,
Pat

[/quote]

Not sure I understand the question...but Protestants...most Protestants...do not believe we are part of a different Church....just different fellowships and congregations which finds common ground on practice or understanding of how we should live or focus of our ministry. There is but One Church, One Baptism, and One Lord....we are members of the same Body....each of us fulfilling a calling we have found needs addressed.

While Catholics would deny your different rites and orders AREN'T different....many of us see that they are different...with different emphasis....and sometimes even different understandings....especially among Eastern Catholics and Latin Catholics....you disagree of course....just as we disagree with your estimation that we belong to "different churches"...we don't...we belong to the same Church as we share the same Spirt and worship the same Lord.

We differ in practice...but for the most part we share a common faith in Christ...it is He that binds us together through the ministry and power of His Spirit tha dwells within us....


#3

[quote="Publisher, post:2, topic:273969"]
Not sure I understand the question...but Protestants...most Protestants...do not believe we are part of a different Church....just different fellowships and congregations which finds common ground on practice or understanding of how we should live or focus of our ministry. There is but One Church, One Baptism, and One Lord....we are members of the same Body....each of us fulfilling a calling we have found needs addressed.

While Catholics would deny your different rites and orders AREN'T different....many of us see that they are different...with different emphasis....and sometimes even different understandings....especially among Eastern Catholics and Latin Catholics....you disagree of course....just as we disagree with your estimation that we belong to "different churches"...we don't...we belong to the same Church as we share the same Spirt and worship the same Lord.

We differ in practice...but for the most part we share a common faith in Christ...it is He that binds us together through the ministry and power of His Spirit tha dwells within us....

[/quote]

Unfortunately different rites are not the equivalent of denominations,thus you and many Protestants may think they are different...but the are NOT in doctrine/dogma. Precisely why they are in communion with Rome or else they would not be Eastern Rites under Rome. As for orders? No different they are under the jurisdiction of Rome. Different missions perhaps,but they are all under Rome...unless I totally wrong?


#4

[quote="PJM, post:1, topic:273969"]
Is there a "common reason" for the Protestant churches? A common foundation?

God Bless,
Pat

[/quote]

Hi Pat,
Probably not. And I would agree with Publisher that there is but one Church - one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Jon


#5

[quote="Nicea325, post:3, topic:273969"]
Unfortunately different rites are not the equivalent of denominations,thus you and many Protestants may think they are different...but the are NOT in doctrine/dogma. Precisely why they are in communion with Rome or else they would not be Eastern Rites under Rome. As for orders? No different they are under the jurisdiction of Rome. Different missions perhaps,but they are all under Rome...unless I totally wrong?

[/quote]

As I said...I understand that Catholics don't believe they are....just as Protestants don't believe we are members of separate churches...we belong to One Church...you disagree and that is understood....as your different rites with different understandings between Eastern and Western Catholics on some issues but still under Rome...so to Protestants are under one Lord, just "different missions perhaps".:)


#6

=JonNC;8971073]Hi Pat,
Probably not. And I would agree with Publisher that there is but one Church - one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Jon

As an after thought, I'm not surprised to discover the concept of "all" being of "one church."
My question is then: So "one church" can hold any number of philosophies and theolohies; even if they are contradictory?

As this seems to me an unlikely reality; what is the foundation for holding to such a position? What makes "us" a church if not ones faith-beliefs?

Nive to hear from you again Jon,

God Bless you,
Pat


#7

[quote="PJM, post:6, topic:273969"]
As an after thought, I'm not surprised to discover the concept of "all" being of "one church."
My question is then: So "one church" can hold any number of philosophies and theolohies; even if they are contradictory?

As this seems to me an unlikely reality; what is the foundation for holding to such a position? What makes "us" a church if not ones faith-beliefs?

Nive to hear from you again Jon,

God Bless you,
Pat

[/quote]

Hi Pat, and His blessings also with you.

On your question, my answer is no. But let's break it down a bit. The one true faith cannot be contradictory, that is true. That Christians hold contradictory beliefs about that one true faith is true. So, for example, while I do not question the faith or Christianity of Calvinists, believe that some of their beliefs are so inconsistent with scripture that I could never be in communion with them. Can the Holy Spirit move in a Calvinist church? Sure, and I believe He does. Are they correctly discerning His message? No.

Jon


#8

[quote="PJM, post:6, topic:273969"]
As an after thought, I'm not surprised to discover the concept of "all" being of "one church."
My question is then: So "one church" can hold any number of philosophies and theolohies; even if they are contradictory?

As this seems to me an unlikely reality; what is the foundation for holding to such a position? What makes "us" a church if not ones faith-beliefs?

Nive to hear from you again Jon,

God Bless you,
Pat

[/quote]

It is God thru Christ who joins us to Himself...not us.....I may disagree with many who too have placed their trust in Him on some beliefs either they or I see as "key"....but even though they believe something quite different on any given issue...God can and does move among them to bring them into union with Him thru Christ. It is thru the work of the Holy Spirit that we are joined to His Body....there is only one Body of Christ and One Church to be a member of through the work of the Holy Spirit....can we disagree....yes....can we hold conflicting beliefs...yes....does God thru His mercy and grace forgive and save imperfect humans and join them to His Body by His astounding and amazing grace and mercy....I beleive so...it is not in my beliefs I trust...it is in the One who gave Himself for me....and while I may have imperfect beliefs concerning the nature of an Infinite and Ineffable God, His grace and love are sufficient to perfect the work He began in me.....it is He who makes us members of His One Body....not ourselves.

"While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us"....we are saved thru His mercy and grace....if any of us needed to understand Him perfectly in order for us to receive His mercy...we'd all be in a world of hurt....in my very imperfect opinion....I rest in His mercy and trust in His grace.


#9

[quote="Publisher, post:5, topic:273969"]
As I said...I understand that Catholics don't believe they are....just as Protestants don't believe we are members of separate churches...we belong to One Church...you disagree and that is understood....as your different rites with different understandings between Eastern and Western Catholics on some issues but still under Rome...so to Protestants are under one Lord, just "different missions perhaps".:)

[/quote]

But Publisher my friend...The Latin Rite and Eastern Rites are all under Rome...same doctrine/dogma,thus how can they be different? Liturgies may vary but I would not state it makes the rites different in regards to doctrine/dogma.


#10

[quote="Nicea325, post:9, topic:273969"]
But Publisher my friend...The Latin Rite and Eastern Rites are all under Rome...same doctrine/dogma,thus how can they be different? Liturgies may vary but I would not state it makes the rites different in regards to doctrine/dogma.

[/quote]

Understood friend....but it is Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit which makes us one in Him....we are joined to the One Church by the work of God in us....not our own....you and I have a different ecclesiology....even to the point that you may not even consider me a Christian since I have never undergone a ritual cleansing of water.....but that in no way deters me from accepting you as a member of His Body and a brother in Christ....it is He that has saved you...not me.....and while we may wear "different clothes" and drive "different cars" and you might kneel and recite the rosary while I sit in expectant silence...it is in His Presence that our differences disappear.....but those are my beliefs.....you don't need to share in them for me to consider you "brother in Christ"....because it is not my acceptance of you or your beliefs that joins you to Christ...but Christ Himself.

One of my favorite scriptures is in Eph 3

"14 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15 from whom [l]every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the [m]saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

20 Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us, 21 to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations [n]forever and ever. Amen. "

I believe we have the same Father and same Lord and are members of the same Body and Church....despite our differences...not because of our similarities.


#11

[quote="Publisher, post:10, topic:273969"]
Understood friend....but it is Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit which makes us one in Him....we are joined to the One Church by the work of God in us....not our own....you and I have a different ecclesiology....even to the point that you may not even consider me a Christian since I have never undergone a ritual cleansing of water.....but that in no way deters me from accepting you as a member of His Body and a brother in Christ....it is He that has saved you...not me.....and while we may wear "different clothes" and drive "different cars" and you might kneel and recite the rosary while I sit in expectant silence...it is in His Presence that our differences disappear.....but those are my beliefs.....you don't need to share in them for me to consider you "brother in Christ"....because it is not my acceptance of you or your beliefs that joins you to Christ...but Christ Himself.

One of my favorite scriptures is in Eph 3

"14 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15 from whom [l]every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the [m]saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

20 Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us, 21 to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations [n]forever and ever. Amen. "

I believe we have the same Father and same Lord and are members of the same Body and Church....despite our differences...not because of our similarities.

[/quote]

I understand Publisher and even though we differ in many aspects, I must respect your beliefs.


#12

[quote="Publisher, post:5, topic:273969"]
just as Protestants don't believe we are members of separate churches...we belong to One Church....:)

[/quote]

I understand that you are attempting to speak for all Protestants when you make a claim such as the one above. I don't think all Protestants would agree with you. I had lunch yesterday with a Lutheran pastor. He certainly would not agree that all Protestants are united in one church, or that they agree on anything. He does not even think he is united in one body with all Lutherans. He does believe denominationalism is an evil and that if the Holy Spirit reunited the Body of Christ (implicit in that statement is there is no unity) that the various groups who reject traditional Christian morals do not belong to it and we, those who hold to traditional morality, Catholics and Protestants alike "would have to kick them out".

Though you may claim or wish there is some agreement that unites all Protestants in regards to how they look at themselves, you are wrong. It is not so.


#13

I was raised Assembly of God. In my life I have attended a number of churches in different denominations, and from my experience, the only things the Protestant movement has in common are Jesus and the Bible. Most can't even agree which translation is most accurate.
I'm not bagging on the Protestant movement-it breaks my heart and grieves me to no end that the body is so fragmented. I can't even talk to my Dad (a retired AofG minister) about how my study of Scripture points me to the Catholic Church, which I believe is the Spirit drawing me home. There is a good deal of anti-Catholic attitude in much of the Protestant movement, and many fallacies have been promoted as truth, widening the schism. What can we do but pray for re-unification, and love one another unconditionally?


#14

[quote="Sojourner61, post:13, topic:273969"]
I was raised Assembly of God. In my life I have attended a number of churches in different denominations, and from my experience, the only things the Protestant movement has in common are Jesus and the Bible. Most can't even agree which translation is most accurate.
I'm not bagging on the Protestant movement-it breaks my heart and grieves me to no end that the body is so fragmented. I can't even talk to my Dad (a retired AofG minister) about how my study of Scripture points me to the Catholic Church, which I believe is the Spirit drawing me home. There is a good deal of anti-Catholic attitude in much of the Protestant movement, and many fallacies have been promoted as truth, widening the schism. What can we do but pray for re-unification, and love one another unconditionally?

[/quote]

Pray for unity!
St. Paul, pray for us!


#15

[quote="JonNC, post:4, topic:273969"]
Hi Pat,
Probably not. And I would agree with Publisher that there is but one Church - one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Jon

[/quote]

I agree that there is only one Church -- the one founded by Jesus Christ. The rest are man- made ecclesial communities.

Some ecclesial communities teach that Baptism is necessary, another one (or thousands) that it is not.

Some teach that the Lord's Supper is purely symbolic, another one (or thousands) that it is "spiritual." (From 1517 to 1577 two hundred different interpretations of "This is my body" were documented in one book).

Thousands teach that the day of worship is Sunday -- and a few that it's Saturday,

There are thousands upon thousands of conflicting and competing denominations that are all based on the same incomplete Bible, but no two of them agree about what the Bible means.

A jillion conflicting doctrines - but the same church? Not logical.

There is one Lord, many differing faiths, and many different beliefs about baptism -- and every other Christian doctrine plus some new ones.

It's a religious jungle out there -- but St. Peter left the light on for me.

Peace to you, Jon.

Jim Dandy


#16

[quote="Jim_Dandy, post:15, topic:273969"]
I agree that there is only one Church -- the one founded by Jesus Christ. The rest are man- made ecclesial communities.

Some ecclesial communities teach that Baptism is necessary, another one (or thousands) that it is not.

Some teach that the Lord's Supper is purely symbolic, another one (or thousands) that it is "spiritual." (From 1517 to 1577 two hundred different interpretations of "This is my body" were documented in one book).

Thousands teach that the day of worship is Sunday -- and a few that it's Saturday,

There are thousands upon thousands of conflicting and competing denominations that are all based on the same incomplete Bible, but no two of them agree about what the Bible means.

A jillion conflicting doctrines - but the same church? Not logical.

There is one Lord, many differing faiths, and many different beliefs about baptism -- and every other Christian doctrine plus some new ones.

It's a religious jungle out there -- but St. Peter left the light on for me.

Peace to you, Jon.

Jim Dandy

[/quote]

Hi Jim. Hope you are well.

While i won't get into some of the particulars you wrote (like, is the Catholic Bible incomplete compared to the Orthodox?), I will say that I agree with the general thrust of your post. As I said in my previous post;
The one true faith cannot be contradictory, that is true. That Christians hold contradictory beliefs about that one true faith is true. So, for example, while I do not question the faith or Christianity of Calvinists, * believe that some of their beliefs are so inconsistent with scripture that I could never be in communion with them. Can the Holy Spirit move in a Calvinist church? Sure, and I believe He does. Are they correctly discerning His message? No.

Jon*


#17

[quote="JonNC, post:16, topic:273969"]
Hi Jim. Hope you are well.

While i won't get into some of the particulars you wrote (like, is the Catholic Bible incomplete compared to the Orthodox?), I will say that I agree with the general thrust of your post. As I said in my previous post;
The one true faith cannot be contradictory, that is true. That Christians hold contradictory beliefs about that one true faith is true. So, for example, while I do not question the faith or Christianity of Calvinists, * believe that some of their beliefs are so inconsistent with scripture that I could never be in communion with them. Can the Holy Spirit move in a Calvinist church? Sure, and I believe He does. Are they correctly discerning His message? No.

Jon*

"Are they correctly discerning His message? No." - Jon

The question then arises, again Jon, who are you to say that Calvinists are not correctly discerning the Holy Spirit's message? By what authority can you make such a statement?

[/quote]


#18

[quote="Tomster, post:17, topic:273969"]
"Are they correctly discerning His message? No." - Jon

The question then arises, again Jon, who are you to say that Calvinists are not correctly discerning the Holy Spirit's message? By what authority can you make such a statement?

[/quote]

Point to something, somewhere, in the early councils, or the ECF's, that states the presence of our Lord in the Eucharist is symbolic, or merely spiritual.
Point to something, somewhere, in the early councils, or the ECF''s, that claims that the pope has universal jurisdiction, or is infallible ex cathedra. By what authority, without the benefit of a truly ecumenical council, as was practiced by the early Church and is not now practiced by Rome, does the pope make claims such as this?

The authority of the early Church was in the councils of all the bishops, not just one. The "authority" issue is easily a question for one bishop, even the one in Rome, on his own as it is for the Lutheran confessions. Division of the Church brings the entire issue of "authority" into play for all communions, triumphalism by any of them notwithstanding.

Jon


#19

[quote="PJM, post:1, topic:273969"]
Is there a "common reason" for the Protestant churches? A common foundation?

God Bless,
Pat

[/quote]

Yes. The common reason is God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We also have that in common with your church. Now, I know that's not what you wanted, you wanted to ask, "why are they Protestant?", but I don't think there's a common reason for that one, at least not one that easily comes to mind.


#20

[quote="masuwerte, post:19, topic:273969"]
Yes. The common reason is God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We also have that in common with your church. Now, I know that's not what you wanted, you wanted to ask, "why are they Protestant?", but I don't think there's a common reason for that one, at least not one that easily comes to mind.

[/quote]

I would say the Trinity is one foundation and an important one. The problem is the many other doctrines that divide Protestant denominations.


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