My Response to Angry Anti Catholic


#1

Below is the text of an email begun with an anti-Catholic. Some background. I sometimes go in to Christian chat rooms and leave this message “If you would like to read my testimony, why I converted from the Pentecostal Church to the Roman Catholic Church, email me and I’ll send it to you.”

The first message is “Tony’s” response. We’ll see if anything comes of this.

“Tony’s” messages are bold mine are blue.

— Tony wrote:

**I learned, after over 40 years and generations of ****my ****family, not to pray to ****dead people, baptize infants, repeatedly crucify ****Jesus, believe in the false ****promise of wearing a scapular and all the other ****lies ****taught by the catholic ****cult and I am so sorry we wasted all that time ****Never being taught of His salvation through Him alone. Not your pope, ****cardinals, bishops and priests ****and the sometimes seemingly endless line of lost ****sheep. I finally read the **Bible, not the catholic bible, but the real inerrant Word of God Himself where He resides. I learned that I’m a priest after all and didn’t even have to join your club who molest countless hordes of children to become one. I learned that I am a Saint too, having accepted Him in the Holy Trinity.

Shame on you misdirected, misinformed souls. Rebuild the catholic culture? Better you should read His Word, accept your Salvation that ONLY comes from and through Him and stop following men in robes.

Follow Jesus and learn as I did…that practicing Catholicism and being saved are diametrically opposed.

Open this link if you dare know the truth: gnfc.org/

May God bless you and all the other catholics mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses

**(Awake!), seventh day adventists, members of the church of Christ boston, muslims, and the hordes who can’t and won’t read, don’t hear or see and don’t, won’t follow Him. **

One more little detail…He has a special place for those who teach and lead people astray.

From: Joseph > To: Tony > Subject: Re: I’m sorry

Thank you for your comments. I will check out www.gnfc.org Please keep me in your prayers.

Jesus Christ is Lord.

Tony wrote:

**Thank you for your heart and please keep me in your prayers as well. I do a **horrible job of witnessing to Catholics. Having been an altar boy and devout member of the church for 40 years…and almost a priest isn’t easy for me.

God bless you, Joseplh.

From: Joseph> To: Tony

I will pray for you.

If you want to witness to Catholics better I suggest that you read the essay “How do Catholics Hear the Gospel?”

You can read it at web.archive.org/web/20040218155856/http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ196.HTM

Or open the attachment.

I remember hearing a fellow tell some kids in Catechism class that the only person allowed to read the Gospel during Mass is the deacon, priest or bishop. That is true, however I can imagine a young person not paying too much attention and then later thinking that the Catholic Church teaches that only the priest can read the Bible.

Often children, especially those who don’t have a good example at home, get things mixed up. You may want to take that in to consideration when witnessing to Catholics.

Bishop Fulton Sheen once said, "Few people in America hate the Catholic religion, but there are many who hate what they mistakenly believe is the Catholic religion— and if what they hate really were the Catholic religion, Catholics would hate it too.”

Find out what the Catholic Church really teaches, not what you remember or what others say it teaches. That will help you understand the Church from the point of the people you want to share Christ with, rather than your point of view or the point of view of non-Catholics.

Another suggestion is to deal with one topic at a time. Rather than hitting a Catholic with several objections at once, choose one topic and stick with that.

And finally, pray, pray, pray. It is obvious that you have a heart for lost souls. We should never let our zeal get in the way of what the Holy Spirit is doing. Our zeal should be tempered with love.

God Bless you.


#2

Hi ICX,

I hope it works out. Have you heard back from the last message you’ve shared with us here? Keep us informed.

I will keep you in your prayers as you seek to reach out to those who errantly believe it is the Catholic Church that has aposticized.

God Bless,

CARose


#3

When listening to criticisms such as those Tony expressed, I find guidance in the following from the 23rd chapter of Matthew.

Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples,
saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses.

Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice.

They tie up heavy burdens 3 (hard to carry) and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they will not lift a finger to move them…

The chapter goes on in a scathing criticism of the religious leaders of Jesus’s time. The unexpected part of the quote, however, is the very first line,

"The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example "

I would extend this to today’s church by first admitting that Catholics, priests, bishops, and even popes have, throughout history made serious errors in teachings and in actions. (Saying that a pope has made mistakes does not contradict the doctrine of infallibility)

The ideal response to these errors is not to dismiss the heirarchy as irrelevant but to still see it as part of the big picture of God’s kingdom. I believe Jesus would have us follow the directives of the church because “they have taken their seat on the chair of Peter” even though sometimes the power derived from that seat has been ill used.

Tony does not seem so far off in somethings he says. Just in this one aspect. It is a particularly difficult challenge to find the true gospel when those around you who should know better clearly don’t.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

-Jim


#4

Very well said Jim!

:thumbsup:

CARose


#5

Thanks

-Jim


#6

Methinks he doth protest too much.
He sounds very much like what I’ve read Luther sounded like.
Faith without obedience is easy. Faith AND obedience, now that’s another story. Everyone I’ve ever heard (and they all sound almost word for word like your chat room friend) want the easy route.
“I found out I was a priest” is a good example. Snap your fingers and “bam” you’re a god. He also sounds like there’s some guilt in there… “almost a priest”. Maybe the seminary was too hard? Maybe he feels bad because he couldn’t handle it? Maybe he feels guilty because he didn’t respond to the call? Or maybe he feels badly because he didn’t have a vocation?
The palpable hatred is what always tips me off to these people. The truth is not in them, or, rather, they’re not telling the whole truth.
nianka


#7

Most of us have a nasty habit of trying to rationalize our choices and decisions, especially those that are, uh, “questionable”. I think this guy left the Church, for whatever reason, and has spent the rest of the time trying to justify this.

For this reason, when kids start smoking and/or drinking, they tell the friends, “Come on, it’s cool”, or “You’re not scared, are you?”. They don’t want it to look like they made a bad choice.

So why the anger? Maybe the Church(es) he went to proved to be lacking. Now he’s stuck between a Church that doesn’t fulfill him, and admitting (heaven forbid!) that he was wrong.

NotWorthy


#8

Oi. Forty years Catholic and “almost a priest?” ICXCNIKA, you’re a far, far better man than I. I’d have called him on that immediately and blown him out of the water. No way on earth was this guy anywhere near becoming a priest. No way on earth was this guy even moderately catechized. Ah, well. If you can lighten the vitriol, even a little, in someone like this, you will have done a good deed for the rest of the Church. God bless you. And him.


#9

ICX - Congratulations on your patience, I can’t believe how well worded your responses were, and I just want to say, good work! Keep it up. I often find patience very hard when dealing with non-Catholics, and I’m going to try to use your example to do better.


#10

[quote=ICXCNIKA].

— Tony wrote:

**I learned, after over 40 years and generations of ****my ****family, not to pray to ****dead people, baptize infants, repeatedly crucify ****Jesus, believe in the false ****promise of wearing a scapular and all the other ****lies ****taught by the catholic ****cult and I am so sorry we wasted all that time ****Never being taught of His salvation through Him alone. Not your pope, ****cardinals, bishops and priests ****and the sometimes seemingly endless line of lost ****sheep. I finally read the **Bible, not the catholic bible, but the real inerrant Word of God Himself where He resides. I learned that I’m a priest after all and didn’t even have to join your club who molest countless hordes of children to become one. I learned that I am a Saint too, having accepted Him in the Holy Trinity.

Shame on you misdirected, misinformed souls. Rebuild the catholic culture? Better you should read His Word, accept your Salvation that ONLY comes from and through Him and stop following men in robes.

Follow Jesus and learn as I did…that practicing Catholicism and being saved are diametrically opposed.

Open this link if you dare know the truth: gnfc.org/

May God bless you and all the other catholics mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses

**(Awake!), seventh day adventists, members of the church of Christ boston, muslims, and the hordes who can’t and won’t read, don’t hear or see and don’t, won’t follow Him. **

One more little detail…He has a special place for those who teach and lead people astray.

Tony wrote:

**Thank you for your heart and please keep me in your prayers as well. I do a **horrible job of witnessing to Catholics. Having been an altar boy and devout member of the church for 40 years…and almost a priest isn’t easy for me.

God bless you, Joseplh.

[/quote]

See how arrogant this man is? I think he can never be saint because of his pride. He thinks that he knew everything in the BIBLE! Pity for him


#11

You’ve taught me a lot by your post. What a great way to respond. Thank you.


#12

ICXCNIKA:
Thank you for that link to the essay “How do Catholics Hear the Gospel?” I guess you could say it dealt with an objection to Catholicism that I have long had, though I hadn’t yet mentioned it on this board. I guess I never really saw Catholics crossing the line from belief to acceptance of Christ’s sacrifice. Coming from a strong Protestant background where saying the “sinner’s prayer” is seen as the step one must make to receive salvation, it was disturbing to me to think that Catholics don’t do something like that. After all, it’s one thing to believe Christ paid the price for one’s sins. It’s quite another to accept the gift Christ has given. Thanks again!

Note: For those of you who have never heard of the “sinner’s prayer,” here is a very simple example:

I confess that I am a sinner. I believe that Jesus died for my sins and I accept him. I invite him into my heart as my own personal saviour.

God Bless!


#13

[quote=The Iambic Pen]ICXCNIKA:
Thank you for that link to the essay “How do Catholics Hear the Gospel?” I guess you could say it dealt with an objection to Catholicism that I have long had, though I hadn’t yet mentioned it on this board. I guess I never really saw Catholics crossing the line from belief to acceptance of Christ’s sacrifice. Coming from a strong Protestant background where saying the “sinner’s prayer” is seen as the step one must make to receive salvation, it was disturbing to me to think that Catholics don’t do something like that. After all, it’s one thing to believe Christ paid the price for one’s sins. It’s quite another to accept the gift Christ has given. Thanks again!

Note: For those of you who have never heard of the “sinner’s prayer,” here is a very simple example:

God Bless!
[/quote]

How 'bout, “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word, and I shall be healed”. The more I come to appreciate this line, by coming to a fuller comprehension of His Sacrifice, the less I feel worthy to receive Him.

NotWorthy


#14

Hey folks,
I did not find the person angry at all. Why is it if you protest against the beliefs of mormons or jw’s that is fine but if one talks about what they consider heresys in RC they are angry anti-catholics.
We need to listen to the Word of God and not deny it’s truth.
The Holy Spirit wants to teach us but if we shut our ears of faith then HE cannot speak to us. If we are SO religious we shut HIM out then we may find ourselves in danger ----very great danger!!!
Sincerely June


#15

hmmm…the easier, softer way!!!

I confess that I am a sinner. I believe that Jesus died for my sins and I accept him. I invite him into my heart as my own personal saviour.

And BAM! you are saved forever…So I say this prayer then commit a grievous sin against God and man and I am still saved huh? I so loathe that OSAS mentality!!! It is pure arrogance to believe that you are going to heaven for a few simple words. Even if they say it is not the words but the faith behind the words…How can they possibly think that as humans we are not a work in progress? We are constantly learning and growing, hopefully in the right direction, but nonetheless still growing. Can anyone tell me honestly that they never ever waivered in the execution of their faith? Have we not all sinned? Therefore, would salvation not be a constant endeavor? How can a person be saved without action? Truly, if a person were to fully believe and accept our Lord as their Savior, would they not act “Christ-Like” as we are called to do? If that is true then is this not an action i.e. “works”? So how is it that they do not believe in the works but only the faith?

Just curious…


#16

Sinner’s prayer? Where is that in the Bible?


#17

[quote=quasimodo]Sinner’s prayer? Where is that in the Bible?
[/quote]

I think you have a very good point here! I have been confronted by prots saying that everything they belive can be found in the Bible so where is it stated that this is all they have to do to be saved?


#18

[quote=June1945]Hey folks,
I did not find the person angry at all. Why is it if you protest against the beliefs of mormons or jw’s that is fine but if one talks about what they consider heresys in RC they are angry anti-catholics.
We need to listen to the Word of God and not deny it’s truth.
The Holy Spirit wants to teach us but if we shut our ears of faith then HE cannot speak to us. If we are SO religious we shut HIM out then we may find ourselves in danger ----very great danger!!!
Sincerely June
[/quote]

No anger?!? Let’s look at what he said:
** I finally read the Bible, not the catholic bible, but the real inerrant Word of God Himself where He resides. I learned that I’m a priest after all and didn’t even have to join your club who molest countless hordes of children to become one. I learned that I am a Saint too, having accepted Him in the Holy Trinity.**

*Shame on you misdirected, misinformed souls. Rebuild the catholic ure? Better you should read His Word, accept your Salvation that ONLY comes from and through Him and stop following men in robes.

Follow Jesus and learn as I did…that practicing Catholicism and being saved are diametrically opposed.
*
You found no anger in there??? It’s one thing to say, “I don’t believe Catholics are right and here’s why…”. It’s another thing to say “Stop following men in robes…”.

NotWorthy


#19

[quote=The Iambic Pen]ICXCNIKA:
Note: For those of you who have never heard of the “sinner’s prayer,” here is a very simple example: …
God Bless!
[/quote]

Hello Iambic Pen;

The Catholic mass is one long “Sinner’s Prayer” One cannot accept the Eucharist without accepting Jesus Christ into one’s heart. Prior to receiving, we acknowledge our sins, ask God’s forgiveness, and profess our belief in God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There was a really great link to a page describing this in greater detail that someone posted a while back. If I find the link I’ll post it to this thread.


#20

Here’s what I wrote in response to the same sort of question, posted in another thread a while back:

So the requirements are: (1) admit I am a sinner; (2) believe Jesus Christ - the Son of God - died for my sins; and (3) accept Jesus into my heart.

I do this every week at Mass.

(1) As a Catholic I admit not only that I am a sinner, but specifically confess - every Sunday at mass - that I have “sinned through my own fault, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do.” And I ask Mary, the angels, the saints in Heaven, and all my brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for me to the Lord our God. It is a sincere turning from sin.

(2) Every Sunday at Mass when I make my public profession of faith I declare my belief that Jesus Christ is the only Son of God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. I profess and declare that I believe He was born of the Virgin Mary, and for MY sake He was crucified, died, was buried, and rose from the dead.

(3) Every Sunday when I receive the Eucharist I reaffirm my belief in Christ and not only do I invite Christ into my heart in a metaphorical sense, but I receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity - the REAL PRESENCE of Christ the Son of God - into my actual body in a real, tangible, physical and sustaining way. NOW THAT’s receiving Christ!

I guess I am “saved” like you. But unlike you I do not hold to the reformed and manmade belief that my salvation is assured - as that is the sin of presumption. I believe that I have a moral assurance of salvation if - like St. Paul - I continue to work out my salvation in fear and trembling. Phil 2:12-13.

Baptism with water (which imparts the Holy Spirit to the recipient) is the “normative” way of obtaining initial justification - i.e. “saving grace” Baptism for Catholics includes both water and the Holy Spirit. It is not an “either/or” proposition.

Hope this helps the conversation. :slight_smile:


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