Naming churches after saints


#1

Peace be with you!

Best way to explain this to someone? The person I’m talking to, no matter what I say, simply will not believe me when I tell her that Catholics don’t worship saints. This is just another attempt (each one is growing weaker, of course) of hers to try to “prove” that Catholics do worship saints. She even said that she asked a couple of her Catholic friends and even a priest if they pray to Mary the same way as to God and all said yes. I don’t believe that for a second; no priest I’ve ever met in my entire life would say something like that.

In Christ,
Rand


#2

[quote=Rand Al’Thor]Peace be with you!

Best way to explain this to someone? The person I’m talking to, no matter what I say, simply will not believe me when I tell her that Catholics don’t worship saints. This is just another attempt (each one is growing weaker, of course) of hers to try to “prove” that Catholics do worship saints. She even said that she asked a couple of her Catholic friends and even a priest if they pray to Mary the same way as to God and all said yes. I don’t believe that for a second; no priest I’ve ever met in my entire life would say something like that.

In Christ,
Rand
[/quote]

You can read this of course…
catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp

It might be she has talked to ill advised Catholics or simply understood from their answer what she wanted to ear.

She, just like Catholics, make mistakes, it’s humane. Just take her straight to official litterature.


#3

[quote=Vandaler]You can read this of course…
catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp

** It might be she has talked to ill advised Catholics or simply understood from their answer what she wanted to ear.**

She, just like Catholics, make mistakes, it’s humane. Just take her straight to official litterature.
[/quote]

Peace be with you!

That’s exactly the case. Unfortunately, whenever I quote anything official stating what the Church teaches, her response is something along the lines of “Like I’m going to believe some biased source. That’s not what my friends tell me.” Well, her friends are not the College of Cardinals or the Pope. I think this person may be a lost case because no matter what I say, every single response of hers is exactly the same: “I’ve seen Catholic stuff; I know. You don’t know about it.”

In Christ,
Rand


#4

I saw Temple Baptist Church once, and I am relativly certain that Baptist’s don’t worship temples (I could be mistaken though-you never know…) as well as St. James United Methodist Church. Where I live, theres First Baptist Church of Plano. I have only worshiped a number on around 3 occasions, but I don’t think others do it as frequently. Calvary (sp) Chapel-do Christians worship a PLACE? Hardly. They worship a person. So the Church is named in honor of a saint. Big deal, it doesn’t mean anything.

EDIT News flash! You may want to tell her to rewrite her Bible-it appears that by titling the Gospels “Matthew, Mark, Luke and John,” we are promoting worship for them! Most certainly it is not in honor of them, sense they wrote it, just as Catholic Churches named after a Saint are not named so in honor of them being their patron.

/end sarcasim;)

As for “biased” sources-Protestants are just as biased as Catholics-Catholics want to prove themselves right, and Protestants want to prove themselves wrong. Catholics telling you what they believe is no more biased than when a Protestant says what a Catholic believes.


#5

She’s an athiest…that’s the only problem with quoting Scripture.


#6

[quote=Rand Al’Thor]She’s an athiest…that’s the only problem with quoting Scripture.
[/quote]

It doesn’t matter. The point is, we named the scriptures in honor of the writers, we name a Church in honor of its patron.


#7

Back in Ephesus they dug up a church Dedicated to Saint Mary the mother of Jesus circa the second century it might be the oldest church ever discovered. Its probably a lot older tradition than whatever church they belong to which probably a brand new non-denom types with no recourse to history.

Here is info from the government of Turkey not exactly catholic propoganda there are many archalogist too that favor the second century dating. This much is for sure no protestant church was around this time but church’s with the name of Mary were already evident in the second century and of course they were catholic church’s no non-denoms or pentacostals there.

turkeyluxurytravel.com/activities/cultural_ephesus.html
Church of St. Mary (Double Church)
Near the Byzantine public baths, this Church holds a special importance in Christian history. Built between the 2nd and 4th centuries AD, it was originally a museum and venue for lectures and debates. It was destroyed by fire in the 4th century and rebuilt as a church, which became the venue of the third Ecumenical Council in 431. It is the first church to be dedicated to the Virgin Mary.


#8

Rand, you keep on coming up with these arguments from friends of yours. Break down and get those apologetics books from this site. They have loads of info regarding these issues, as well as the library link on the main page.

I don’t see how you have time to breathe, good luck and God bless trying to straighten things out.

:slight_smile:


#9

[quote=mjdonnelly]Rand, you keep on coming up with these arguments from friends of yours. Break down and get those apologetics books from this site. They have loads of info regarding these issues, as well as the library link on the main page.

I don’t see how you have time to breathe, good luck and God bless trying to straighten things out.

:slight_smile:
[/quote]

Peace be with you!

I post on quite a few websites, most are message boards for authors that I read. Those sites usually have a “General Discussion” area and sooner or later someone ends up saying something about the Church. I usually can’t just let it go, so I have to clear things up for them.:slight_smile:
I’ve probably been through all the links in the library at least five times, but I’m planning on getting some good books from this site. So far, I’ve got Upon this Rock, which I ordered from Steve Ray’s site, and my uncle just sent my brother back with a pile of books for me to borrow.:smiley: Now I’ve got Apologia Pro Vita Sua, Mere Christianity, A Short History of the Interpretation of the Bible, C.S. Lewis’ conversion story, and a biography of Eleanor of Aquaitaine. Too much to read, too little time, I say!

In Christ,
Rand


#10

Read Upon this Rock ASAP! One of the most convincing reads for me.


#11

[quote=Maccabees]Back in Ephesus they dug up a church Dedicated to Saint Mary the mother of Jesus circa the second century it might be the oldest church ever discovered. Its probably a lot older tradition than whatever church they belong to which probably a brand new non-denom types with no recourse to history.

Here is info from the government of Turkey not exactly catholic propoganda there are many archalogist too that favor the second century dating. This much is for sure no protestant church was around this time but church’s with the name of Mary were already evident in the second century and of course they were catholic church’s no non-denoms or pentacostals there.

turkeyluxurytravel.com/activities/cultural_ephesus.html
Church of St. Mary (Double Church)
Near the Byzantine public baths, this Church holds a special importance in Christian history. Built between the 2nd and 4th centuries AD, it was originally a museum and venue for lectures and debates. It was destroyed by fire in the 4th century and rebuilt as a church, which became the venue of the third Ecumenical Council in 431. It is the first church to be dedicated to the Virgin Mary.
[/quote]

Cool at first, not as big a discovery as I thought. IT said it was not dedicated to being a Church until the 4th century, or maybe the 5th. It was only built as a museum between the 2nd to 4th centuries. If it was dedicated as a Church in the 3rd, then it was most likely after the Edict of Milan, which is the date I hear most often for when The Catholic Church was “founded.”


#12

[quote=FuzzyBunny116]Read Upon this Rock ASAP! One of the most convincing reads for me.
[/quote]

Peace be with you!

I know! I’ve only gotten through about 50 pages so far, but it’s great! I love the way he goes into so much depth about the OT reference to the keys and stewardship.

In Christ,
Rand


#13

Rand, from the early days of the Church the relics of the Saints were honored. Naming of churches after a specific Saint usually meant that the Saint’s body or relics from that body were enclosed therein. (Although this practice was loosened a bit following Vatican II, most parishes, I believe, still follow this practice.) Thus the Saint was/is invoked as the special patron of that particular church.

E.G., St. Augustine says, “we have not erected an altar to the martyr, Stephen, but with the relics of the martyr Stephen we have erected an altar to God.”

carmelite.com/youth/relics.shtml


#14

[quote=Rand Al’Thor]Peace be with you!

Best way to explain this to someone? The person I’m talking to, no matter what I say, simply will not believe me when I tell her that Catholics don’t worship saints. This is just another attempt (each one is growing weaker, of course) of hers to try to “prove” that Catholics do worship saints. She even said that she asked a couple of her Catholic friends and even a priest if they pray to Mary the same way as to God and all said yes. I don’t believe that for a second; no priest I’ve ever met in my entire life would say something like that.
[/quote]

As far as the words used here go, this is perfectly true. The Church’s doctrinal documents speak of prayer to the Saints; it does not follow, that the attitude is identical; for we do not intend to give to creatures the unreserved love which God alone is capable of receiving. And where there is no intention to give to creatures what only God can receive, there is no giving. A hammer can be used as a means of carpentry - it can also be used to commit a murder. Murder is a crime - carpentry is not. Yet a hammer can be used for both. The difference is not in the hammer, but in the intention of the person wielding it.

So with p.t.t.SS: Mary is our joy, our life, our hope, our protection, our help, our crown, and a great deal more; she is the Gate of Heaven, the Morning Star, the Tower of David, the Rose of Sharon, the Glory of Jerusalem, the New Eve, the Mother of the Church, etc., etc., etc., etc.; some of these are even titles of her Son. And other Saints are also called by similarly high-sounding names: she is not the only Saint to have a litany - far from it.

Two differences set all saints apart from God:

  1. God, alone, receives sacrifice.

  2. And all the saints, no matter how exalted they may be by grace, are alike in being beneficiaries of Christ and His saving work. There is not even one exception to this. So they receive grace from Christ as truly as the rest of us; they, like us, are not, and cannot be, anything without Christ - for He is their, and our, environment. They, and we, need oxygen for our bodies - and grace, for our life in communion with Christ.

A further point - there is no prayer which does not terminate in God. Including prayer to the Saints. This again is because they are “in Christ”, & are never separated from Him; for He is the universal cause of all holiness in His creatures.

Perhaps the way to show what the Church holds about the Saints, is to show what she holds about Christ. The language used about some saints can certainly
look blasphemous - until one compares it with what is said of Christ, and believed about Him. IMO, it is fatal to look at the saints in isolation from Him - after all, they don’t live in isolation from Him. What the Church holds about the Saints, is part of a unified vision of creation, in wich they hold a part: an important part, but still no more than a part. It is in Christ that all things hold together (see Colossians 1.15), and it is He Who makes them all “make sense”. So what the Church believes is not an untidy, unconnected heap of doctrines - it’s more like a tapestry, in which every thread has its place, and contributes to the whole design. Doctrines are connected organically - they are not inert or dead. ##

In Christ,
Rand

What do you, and she, understand by that word “worship” ?


#15

[quote=Gottle of Geer]## What do you, and she, understand by that word “worship” ? ##
[/quote]

Peace be with you!

Thank you for the response. I’m aware of the different meanings of “worship” in Latin, but I stay away from the word altogether unless I am referring to God Himself (that’s the way I normally define the word “worship”). She meant that we worship saints as we worship God…essentially that we are practicing paganism.

In Christ,
Rand


#16

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