Nazi-like herding - when to fight?

Psychopathic regimes have used “herding” to kill large numbers of innocent families. Thinking about the Nazis for instance who moved families into townships, then to work camps then to genocide. Based on the following text from the Catechism - when, in the herding process, would it have been a ***grave obligation ***for parents to fight with arms against the psychopaths leading their own country in which they lived?

2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a **grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. **The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold **authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility. **(2240)

Note: the Catechism was recently written, so I am not sure there was an articulated moral obligation among Catholics in the middle of the 20th century to fight with arms against their unjust leaders.

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:popcorn:

That assumes that the enemy is unjust leaders…

Haven’t seen any such herding and no one in my household would go with that no matter what the cost.

It seems to me that any need to fight will become pretty obvious. :shrug:

What countries are you talking about? Which regimes are doing this “herding”? How do you know who is a “psychopath”?

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

Ed

Go to work, come home, go to the store, buy gas, pay bills… No herding.

All I have for an example are WWII Nazis who herded families by locking up their work, pulling their weapons, etc. then herded them to townships, then into trains, then into work camps, then into death showers. And the Soviets I believe did some of the same things. So wondering at what point if one’s own government were doing this sort of thing, should a parent use violence to try to stop the slow, murderous herding given those similar herding steps used by those governments.

What makes this so devious is that those who were herded may have had no idea that the end of the line was death, until the showers turned on.

If history were to repeat itself, is there a point (prior to reaching the showers) where a Parent should pull out the guns and defend one’s family. In light of the history now showing that a modern regime is capable of such atrocities, where is the red line when one is being herded?

I have little time, given the state of the world, to worry about hypothetical “herding”. Most evil people seem to be killing on the spot rather than wasting a train fare.

The problem I have with this post, Iwish, is the same issue I had with your other post on the murderous thief, and it’s this: you’re seeking an absolute bright red line for what to do or not do.

The Catholic Church is not in any position to issue red lines in cases like this one here, or the murderous thief, nor should be expect the church or Bible to provide with bright line answers to morality questions.

Morality is exceedingly complex: if it wasn’t, great scholars wouldn’t have written lengthy tomes on it. The moral issues in a case like this are huge: do I run with my family when challenged, despite having no real ability to do so? Do I become Georg Von Trapp and run a dangerous gauntlet to get to Switzerland? Do I follow the herd and have small chance of surviving, vs. almost zero chance if I fight at any particular place.

Lastly, as to nazis herding people: isn’t it the Police or child protective services “herding” when they take a kid away from an unfit Parent? Herding to you might be legitimate actions by the state when looked at differently

I thought there was a red line in the Catechism regarding protecting one’s family - at least that was my take away. But point taken on this topic - probably no red line. We can close this thread.

Paranoid very much?

Anyone seen any of this “herding” this guy is talking about here in the U.S.of A?

Great Britain maybe?

:hmmm: Didn’t think so…

It is difficult to think about fighting with machine guns pointing at you and your kids, I would imagine.

Baaahh!

That’s what all the sheep say.

History around us moves in phases and always has done. One minute there is promotion of excessive material comfort (for those admitted to privilege) and complacency, and another time I am uneasy about an apparent tendency to try to divide us all into some kind of “castes” (probably for advertising :wink: ).

Neofight gave us all good advice in the thread about “murderous thieves”,

forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=13422281&postcount=3

Jesus and the Apostles gave us all the same advice, be alert not complacent, keep up hope, pray more than I have been doing, whatever the “times” appear to be.

What if the situations are not so black and white though? What if the only other alternative is being arrested and jailed…how many devout people would just ‘go along’, and be obedient to survive?

Not sure if it will be similar to the Nazi ‘herding’ of people but people will face a choice like this in the end times, but like the Nazis, Im sure the powers that be will find a solution for this before the herding starts, the Nazis did it thru disarming the people first, kind of hard to fight back when you dont have the means to do so.

It took about 27 allied countries 6 years to defeat the Nazis. The Nazi army was about 13 million. If your family was 13 million strong you would not win in a fight.

Even though the Catechism says it would be our grave duty to fight to protect the ones entrusted to us, this sort of situation where a family is slowly but steadily overwhelmed by a juggernaut - there is but one recourse only: seeking the assistance our Lady the Queen of Heaven and Saint Michael & the Angels repeating the call that shook the heavens: “Who is like unto God?!”. Other than that, we would have to hand the rest over to our Father’s Loving Providence. Getting in a physical battle without Heaven’s help would be utter madness and outside the intent of what the Catechism was addressing here. At least that is my takeaway at the moment. Thank you all for your inputs.

How about attempted “herding?”

…about 45 minutes into the peaceful demonstration, several students, representing the homosexual movement on campus, began to react. First, a male student attempting to look like a woman approached, walking his dog, and wearing a shirt with the word “pride” printed on it in rainbow colors. He attempted to block one of the TFP volunteers’ signs with his body and became the day’s first example of pro-homosexual hypocrisy: preach tolerance, but never practice it.

Slowly, other students dressed in a similar way began to arrive, usually telegraphing their presence with curse words against TFP volunteers, or by displaying their middle fingers. One male student rudely blocked Cesar Franco’s pro-family sign with a rainbow flag.

“So you preach tolerance,” said Cesar, “yet refuse to tolerate my opinion?”
Rainbow student: Silence.

Cesar raised his sign above his head where the pro-homosexual student could not cover it. The student then attempted to rip the sign out of his hands. After failing to do so, TFP volunteer John Miller politely demanded the student answer whether the TFP volunteers had the right to express their own opinions, even if it differed from his own.

TFP member: “You’re not willing to let us speak our minds?”
Student: “No.”
Member: “You’re not open-minded enough for that?”
Student: “Nope.”
Member: “So it’s actually a one-way street?”
Student: “Yeah. I’m fine with that.”
Member: “So you are a hypocrite?”
Student: “Yeah. I’m fine with that…”
Member: “You can’t even live with a little opposition?”
Student: "Not when the opposition has existed for the past 2,000 years.

“Do you love God?”

Another pro-homosexual individual arrived with a new sign: “you are loved.” However, TFP volunteers were somewhat perplexed when the woman began cursing at them. Loved?

Several in the crowd began screaming, “Love!”

TFP volunteer Damien Murphy replied: “Do you love God?”
None of them answered his question. A woman walked up after a little while and asked, “If I did [love God], what would you say then?”
Damien replied, “Then follow His commandments.”
“Oh, that makes sense…” she stammered.

Aggressor Plays Victim

With about 35 people, the counter-demonstration of “love” grew more aggressive when a bearded student wearing the same “pride” shirt as many of his colleagues announced his arrival by cursing and blowing smoke in the faces of Cesar Franco and Elias Rubio. He then blew more smoke into the faces of other TFP volunteers, interspersing his antics with more curses and threats against “discrimination.”

Discrimination?

When TFP volunteer John Miller asked him where he read or saw discrimination in any of the TFP literature the man could not show him. The man only advanced against TFP volunteer Joseph Jordan and blew smoke in his face.

Here are some of the sound bites from the liberal students:

“You’re spreading hate! Get off our campus!”
“I hate you and everything you stand for!”
“Lay that flag on the ground so I can stomp on it!”
“If people like you are going to heaven, I would rather go to hell!”
“If God exists, let Him strike me down now!”

The TFP members not only received verbal aggression from the pro-homosexual activists but also moral aggression. One pro-homosexual student attempted to “hug” a TFP volunteer from behind, but was thankfully stopped by a fellow volunteer. Another activist got very close to one of the TFP members, acting in a lewd and indecent way. Yet another acted in a similar manner with a dog that was present.

Clearly a Spiritual Battle

A female student approached a TFP member:
“I hope satan stomps on you,” she said while recording the exchange on her iPhone. “Hail satan! Hail satan!”

tfpstudentaction.org/what-we-do/street-campaigns/students-invoke-satan-against-tfp.html?utm_source=sm-tfpsa&utm_medium=email&utm_content=SAE0344&utm_campaign=tfpsa_newsletter

The Who - Won’t Get Fooled Again

Haven’t seen any sheep…haven’t seen any herding…Am prepared for distress and collapse though :shrug:

Most things are rarely black and white in life. That’s just the reality that we all face.

I agree that attempts to disarm us all are wrong and should be opposed whole heartedly and that it has historically led to the oppression and even genocide of peoples around the world.

If we mean to remain free then that is one part of securing the blessings of liberty for ourselves and our posterity.

Still the OP has not shown that there is any such herding or oppression underway and I suggest that we wisely take whatever appropriate steps needed to be secure. Until then …:shrug:

Correct, the intent was not to state that there was “herding” but more to explore what to do based on the Catechism if history were to repeat itself with a power far greater than say a thief in the night. I think the only realistic answer is “pray” and rely on God’s Providence.

Every time the US government tries to ban a certain type of weapon, like assault rifles, people start stocking up with as many as they can and buy thousands of rounds of ammunition. If a certain type of ammunition is about to be restricted, sellers see cases go out the door until they run out.

I usually dislike using the following as a reference, but I think it’s good enough:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

I’ve been to the “conspiracy” sites and “the government is out to get you” sites. FEMA is doing this - based on what? Camps exist where we will be confined. To what end, I’ll leave to your imagination. Some people love rumors and hearsay. Survivalist groups have it all planned out for a war with forces unknown. They train in full military gear, have sophisticated tactics, shelters and know how to live off the land.

That has been going on for decades, long before the internet.

Ed

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