Need a Muslim explanation


#1

There is a part of the Quran that I do not understand and I would really appreciate the insight of any Muslim who can enlighten me. I cannot give you the sura number but I am sure you are well aquainted with the passages regarding the crucifixion of Jesus (or I should say non-crucifixtion?). Anyway, my understanding is that the Quran says that Jesus was not crucified, though the people thought He was. It was made to appear to the people that it was Jesus when it supposedly was not Him. To my knowledge it doesn’t say who was crucified but I have heard some Muslims speculate that it was Judas who was made to appear as Jesus. Now, my understanding is that Allah, made it appear this way to basically “save” Jesus. My problem with this is that this appears to be a major deception. Why would Allah need to use deception to save Jesus? It is against the nature of God to deceive, is it not? Even more confusing to me is the fact that after the crucifixion (or bogus crucifixtion) the religion of Christianity began. It seems, well, illogical that God would have done this.

Now I know many Christians who are likely to post about how the whole Quran is bogus and I am not looking for that explanation. I really want to know, from a Muslim perpective, how they understand this passage and can accept that God deceived an entire group of people?

This is not meant to be an insult. I simply don’t get it, and that could very well be because of what I believe about the nature of God. Any insight would be appreciated, because I haven’t been able to receive a clear explanation of this yet.


#2

Peace,

Like any other article of faith or doctrine, ex., things in the NT for instance, there probably is no “clear explanation” of this phenomenon which God (swt) inspired the Prophet (saaws) to speak about in the Qu’ran. If we look for rational modern day type of explanations for these phenomena which occurred in Biblical times, etc, we find we face either A) losing or damaging our faith, if we’re already weak, or B) simply realizing that there is no such thing available and we must either accept or discard, based upon our own personal feelings.

We know there was a Jesus (pbuh) , whom we believe to have been a great and important prophet (although in no way divine) and you believe to have been an incarnation of God (swt) Himself, “the Word made Flesh”, the son of God (swt) , savior of the world, symbol of the “new covenant”, etc. We know that relatively late in his short (public) life he began to minister to his people around that region of Palestine / Israel where he lived and that he finally traveled down, most say for Passover, to Jerusalem and the final course of events for his ministry , per God’s Will, began to take place there (as Jesus himself said in the Garden, “If God wills it” ; as Muslims we may also say that he could just as well have said, while prostrated in prayer, realizing something was imminent for him and he was feeling so afraid, “Insha’ Allah”).

We do not believe he was actually crucified however.   As I said I cannot provide you with a clear explanation,   far be it from me to be able to,   for words inspired by God and placed into the mouth of the final Prophet (saaws)  by God's spirit or angel.   But I can say that we feel that probably this occurred so that the people  ,   the soldiers who occupied the area at the time ,  from Italy,   and or the local Jewish authorities ,  would not continue to hunt him down and make life unbearable for him and his family.    As for why God (swt) "deceived" people into believing that the man had been crucified,  who can say why God (swt) does *anything* per se??   Should we be so bold as to question God's works,  God's Will in this way??   It is simply beyond our comprehension,  we believe,  and also God is always said to "work in mysterious ways",   right ?     Who can say why God (swt) willed Christ-ianity to become a powerful world faith ?  And why Islam also for that matter??  Why Judaism ,   in the first place ??   We might guess that  if God (swt) had been perfectly satisfied with Judaism and with the Jews themselves ,  he would not have willed ANY further religions, aiming at the Truth,   to develop in His Name.    Perhaps Christianity was or is something like "phase two" or "attempt two" of the equation?   But people,  man,  still got it wrong,  misinterpreted a messenger and his message,  and proceeded to what we call *bida'i* ,  innovation,  to create the idea of praying *to* this messenger (instead of to *God*, swt,  which they should have noticed Jesus himself so often doing) because they believed this messenger to have been deceased and then resurrected from the dead,  when in fact he had never died at all.   And we must notice too then that Islam  is the most *recent* development of the Abrahamic monotheistic tradition,   and no other faith like it has yet arrived nor (we believe) will there ever be one,   because ,   again *we* believe,  that Islam is the final fruition ,  the full bloom if you will of the religion of true *tauhid* (oneness,  or monotheism)  which God (swt) revealed first to Abraham (pbuh) and intended for all people to follow.   

Peace.


#3

Here is the link to a thread asking this same question.

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=104662


#4

I appreciate your thorough response. And, like you, I believe that there are things that God does that a human being just cannot understand. That being said, there are certain beliefs we Christians hold, about the Divine nature of God, that you do not seem to share. That is, of course, a major stumbling block for me in trying to understand Islam. As a Catholic, I believe that God, by His very Divine nature, cannot deceive, nor be deceived. And in my humble opinion, it does not make sense to me that he would choose any kind of deception for any purpose. For a Christian, that conflicts with all He ever revealed about Himself (obviously the Quran is excluded here because we don’t believe in the Quran as a true revelation). Anyway, you have shed some light on this for me and I really appreciated it.


#5

QUOTE=George Waters]Here is the link to a thread asking this same question.

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=104662/

I did see that thread but it seemed that there were a lot more Christians talking about it than Muslims. I am really more interested in how Muslims can reconcile this deceptive act with the nature of God. What I am starting to realize is that they have a different view of the nature of God. But thanks for the link, there were some quotes from the Quran that I was unfamiliar with.


#6

[quote=Prayer_Warrior]I did see that thread but it seemed that there were a lot more Christians talking about it than Muslims. I am really more interested in how Muslims can reconcile this deceptive act with the nature of God. What I am starting to realize is that they have a different view of the nature of God. But thanks for the link, there were some quotes from the Quran that I was unfamiliar with.
[/quote]

Yep! That pretty much sums up that thread! :smiley: I just wanted to be sure you could get all you cound in the way of an answer! :thumbsup:


#7

yes we believe that God does not deceive…but the quran states otherwise…so this “deception” by Allah is considered normal cuz he is afterall “the best deceiver”…

As to save Jesus from those who wanted to kill him, well it is against scripture and against logic because even Jesus’ mother or disciples didn’t know about it…

Anyway, muslims cannot explain to you what really happened to the exalted “prophet” Jesus after 23 years of repetitive revelations.Any interpretation is absurd so they prefer to say : Allah knows best. But the question is: Allah tried to interpret some “christian” doctrines (even these were wrong) and to reject them, but did not explain what happened to Jesus when Jews, Romans and Christians say he was crucified…we have all these people talking of his crucifixion and Allah did nothing to explain what happened if there was no crucifixion.

In the link you were given, i posted where this “appeared to them” came from and i think it clarifies things a lot.


#8

As muslims , we believe in Gods tests. We believe that God gives one the means to pass the tests , but he also tests us and some times tough tests.

As for the concept of deception, allow me to explain. God in Islam doesnt deceive, however he tests. and he never tests unless he has already taught you well. The appearance of the crucifixtion of Jesus was both a saving of Jesus the Noble prophet from a humiliating experience that involves torturing and lashing and mocking and all sorts of horrible things that doesnt fit to the Message that the prophets of God deliver. God is supreme. He allows his prophets to go through harships yes, but not total defeat.

IYou cant use the concept of Gods actions against him, there are earthquakes , rapes ,genocides family break ups and all sorts of horrors in the world . Why we dont assume God to be responsible and thus evil for al this also ? if we are to blame him for practicing deception against us.

The explanation is that this is life and we are on it to be tested for the correctness and the strength of our belief. God expects from the Jews to believe same as the Torah told them. That means no trinity and and no jesus died for my sins dogma. Now here they see their charismaic leader bieng crucified . There is a temptation in the air to worship him and glorify him because he was such a great man .

Its a very old bad trait in us humans, we end up worshipping the wrong people , we glorify creatures other than the creator and when it doesnt seem logic , we associate them with the creator ,

Jesus cruxifiction was a test of the proper Jewish faith which was according to Moses law Identical to Islam .

The only aim for Jesus was to bring back the jews from a corrupt understanding of Judaism into a proper one again. trying to make them understand the essence of the law is important as the law itself . or even more. He was sent specifically to the people of israel.

You can ask your self why does God put great poeople in such great danger ? you can ask yourself why God makes famins where infants die in the hands of their mothers.

The simple answer in Islam is that these are all tests. and that the real reward for the people who endured these tests is in Gods hands on judgement day. Our mission is to pass the tests. Some tests are in our selves and families , some of them arent . In either way we should try to do good and ethical deeds and thank Allah for the Good and the bad .

The jewish faith was clear . It didnt have any devine connotations to jesus or having sons of God as in real sense of the word . This is the weapon that God gave the jews . Thoudsands pf years of belief in the law of moses. Is it Logical to change the ‘‘Dogma’’ ( which is teh core of the faith !) after that just because lets say a propeht was crucufied?

common sense would say No . and here lies the test .

Having said that i wuld like to add that as far as i understand , the trinity Dogma was formulated mainly with Paul and that the 12 deciples of Jesus were Jews but who believed in him as the messiah .

However they were normal observant jews.

I hope my opinion might give you the insight of Islams view point on this matter .

peace

meedo


#9

[quote=inJESUS]yes we believe that God does not deceive…but the quran states otherwise…so this “deception” by Allah is considered normal cuz he is afterall “the best deceiver”…
[/quote]

Hi inJesus,

You utterly failed to understand the Islamic point of view, first and the following facts:

  1. The “death” of Jesus had nothing to do with the actual mission of Prophet Jesus. Because many prophets have already been killed before him by the Jews and none of their real deaths had caused any disbelief in true followers’ faith. Why? because the act of dying was never a condition before or after Jesus, for salvation. They all died because their respective transgressed people did not want to follow the Divine Law of God sent through them by God.

  2. In the case of Jesus, he too came to restore the previous law of God (Torah and the Prophtes) and demanded from all of his nation (Children of Israel) to follow it in it’s entirety, hence the enemies were after his life because they did not want to accept him as their King (ruler) because accepting his rulership means death sentence to their own concocted/adopted man-made or distorted laws, though they pretend to follow the Law, but were living happily under pagan Roman Authority.

  3. As such they, as usual, tried to kill an another prophet (Jesus) just like how their ancestors have been killing Prophets of God before. If this time God, had rescued his Prophet (Jesus) from most disgusting humiliated and insulted death, then it does not mean that God (Allah) decieved those criminals who were watching this drama of crucifxion. Because death was not a requirement for his followers’ salvation/Eternal life nor Jesus wanted to die in the first place.

  4. If people who came after Jesus, made the so-called “death” of Jesus, a pretext, to justify their own concocted views thus made it essential part of their concocted religion, namely, Christianity, then what God (Allah) has to do with this non-Prophetic view? God (Allah) is free from what people after Jesus, fabricated in the name of Christianity. Jesus did not preach Christianity nor he was a Christian.

So Mr. inJesus, if I take your reasoning seriously, then your God too decieved your Christiandom’s millions of people who did not and still do not subscribe to your Catholic faith for centuries. Because they in **their eyes ** are the true Christians and you are not, thus, since you are not a true christian in other Christians’ eyes, thus your God either decieved you or decieved your non-Catholic opponents. Are you then ready to accept this premise thus declare that your God too is a deciever?

Did you realise how baseless is your reasoning of attributing your own falsehood to God?

Thus it is your false reasoning/premise that is based on deception and not God. God does not decieve. God gave us free choice to either pick right or wrong and make ourselves what makes more sense. If you perceive Jesus’ death as an essential part of faith for salvation (even if it is assumed that he did die) then it is your mistake, it is you who is decieveing your self because Jesus did not come to die to save you nor he wanted to die in the first place.


#10

I guess lorraine is not a dhimmi but a muslim.


#11

[quote=cestusdei]I guess lorraine is not a dhimmi but a muslim.
[/quote]

If she is that is great isn’t it? :wink: :smiley:


#12

As for the concept of deception, allow me to explain. God in Islam doesnt deceive, however he tests. and he never tests unless he has already taught you well.

What I refer to as the deception cannot be called a test. They are two different things. A deception is a ruse or a trick, the use of deceit. A test is a trial, a means of determining truth, knowledge etc. Clearly the Quran says that it was made to appear to the people that Jesus had been crucified when He had not. That is deceit… or at best a test by use of deceit.

IYou cant use the concept of Gods actions against him, there are earthquakes , rapes ,genocides family break ups and all sorts of horrors in the world . Why we dont assume God to be responsible and thus evil for al this also ? if we are to blame him for practicing deception against us.

That is making quite a leap. Yes, I could see where natural disasters could be a test for the faith of mankind. But God is not deceiving us when those disasters occur. As far as rapes, genocides etc, I believe those are the acts of individual people and not acts of God.

The explanation is that this is life and we are on it to be tested for the correctness and the strength of our belief. God expects from the Jews to believe same as the Torah told them. That means no trinity and and no jesus died for my sins dogma. Now here they see their charismaic leader bieng crucified . There is a temptation in the air to worship him and glorify him because he was such a great man .

I don’t think that the crucifixion tempted them to worship Him. It was the resurrection. Remember, all but one of Jesus’ apostles had run for the hills. Peter, had denied Jesus three times before the crucifixion. Then, something caused all that to change. Something caused these apostles (save John) be willing to die for their belief. We believe that something to be the resurrection of Christ. I realize you don’t agree but my point is that the crucifixion itself was not what made these people worship Jesus.

Its a very old bad trait in us humans, we end up worshipping the wrong people , we glorify creatures other than the creator and when it doesnt seem logic , we associate them with the creator ,
Jesus cruxifiction was a test of the proper Jewish faith which was according to Moses law Identical to Islam .

I can’t say I know Moses law or Islam that well, but logic tells me they are not identical or else Jews would be Muslims, wouldn’t they? But yes, I do see similarities with Judaism and Islam.

The jewish faith was clear . It didnt have any devine connotations to jesus or having sons of God as in real sense of the word . This is the weapon that God gave the jews . Thoudsands pf years of belief in the law of moses. Is it Logical to change the ‘‘Dogma’’ ( which is teh core of the faith !) after that just because lets say a propeht was crucufied?

common sense would say No . and here lies the test .

The Old Testament is filled with forshadowing of Jesus. The trinity is indeed evident in the Old Testament right from Genesis. And the Messiah who was supposed to free the Jewish people was described as such: " For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called “Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” Is 9:6 So, in reality, the Old Testament is fulfilled in the New Testament and the New Testament reveals the Old Testament.

Having said that i wuld like to add that as far as i understand , the trinity Dogma was formulated mainly with Paul and that the 12 deciples of Jesus were Jews but who believed in him as the messiah .

The Trinity was not developed by Paul, although I have heard several Muslims claim that Paul corrupted the faith. Paul wrote a few Epistles to various churches. He is a very important figure in early Christianity, but even if he was absent the Trinity would still be evident in the Gospels which he did not write.

I hope my opinion might give you the insight of Islams view point on this matter .

Yes, thank you so much. I appreciate you taking the time to explain your perspective and hope you’ll take the time to consider mine too. :wink:

meedo


#13

I’m sorry, I don’t understand your reasoning. You have done everything here to state that Christianity is false, but you have not addressed the text of the Quran which is a separate matter. Frankly, anyone who is objective, be it a Jew, Athiest, Christian or Buddhist can look at the passage in question and see that there is a deception. According to the Quran God made it look like Jesus was crucified when He was not. That is deceit.


#14

[quote=Emad]If she is that is great isn’t it? :wink: :smiley:
[/quote]

only if it helps her to the Truth Who Is Jesus Christ, and leads her, through knowledge gained, away from the false prophet.


#15

[quote=MrS]only if it helps her to the Truth Who Is Jesus Christ, and leads her, through knowledge gained, away from the false prophet.
[/quote]

She has nothing to loose in Islam, she has Jesus, Moses and Muhammad all together. Also why do you think he is a false Prophet? I would be more than happy to discuss it with you* if you are sincere* in discovering if he was a real Prophet.

:slight_smile:


#16

[quote=Emad]She has nothing to loose in Islam, she has Jesus, Moses and Muhammad all together. Also why do you think he is a false Prophet? I would be more than happy to discuss it with you* if you are sincere* in discovering if he was a real Prophet.

:slight_smile:
[/quote]

In Islam, you do not have the redemption of Jesus, but rather Jesus as a Prophet. They are not the same.

I know your next question was not aimed at me but part of the reason I think Muhammad was false is because the Quran contradicts the divine nature of God. Specifically, regarding the issue of the original post.

However, if you can give me some sort of reasonable explanation of why Muslims do not see the aforementioned passage of the Quran as a deceptive act committed by God, I would be more than happy to hear other reasons you believe Muhammad was a real prophet. But, be advised, any case against Christianity has no bearing on this issue with the Quran. I am sincere in my search for truth and I welcome any insight you have. :slight_smile:


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