Need Guys' perspectives, please

#21

Sorry, I am not a guy, but I'm also from that generation who doesn't believe there's anything wrong with premarital sex. These are a couple things that made me want to stay chaste:
Either look up, or somehow have her look up all the verses in the Bible that deal with fornication. The punishment is pretty clear and it scared me at that age. Also, make sure the issue never becomes commonplace in your household. I don't know how to explain this :shrug: but it's like you're reaction to any subsequent violations of your rules is to be just as shocked and disappointed in her as your were the first time you found out. Not to say this is what will happen in your family, but it happened in mine: don't get so used to the situation where you're calling out to her as she's leaving the house "hey remember not to have sex!" as if you were saying" hey remember to pick up your clothes when you get home." I'm sure that won't happen with you, though, but it's always good to be vigilant. Don't give up, because even if she's acting like she doesn't hear you, she does.
Maybe if your husband is uncomfortable addressing the issue with her, you could ask him to just do more quality time with her in general. I read a study recently about the more active role a dad plays in his daughter's life, the less likely she is to engage in sexual practices (specifically, it talked about fewer partners, less risky sex, etc.)
Good luck; she is extremely lucky to have a mom like you who actually tries to teach her morals (a lot of parents don't.) Remember you may not be able to control everything she does, but you ARE in control of consequences.

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#22

As has been said just pray pray pray for her. My generation and the ones that follow are horribly fallen. Satan is growing in influence and his power over humanity grows though we all know he can't win. God is love and if we have faith and trust in Him all will be as it should be. I'm 23 and used to teach at an elementary school for a year and would still happily be there were the economy not so horrid prompting me to take full time employment elsewhere. That said, a few of my students added me on facebook and we keep in touch every now and again. It's very hard for me to see the types of friends these girls are making and listening to them at such young ages speak of such sinful things. I want to be able to speak to them as they used to regard me as a big brother but of course I know my place. I'm not their parent and would never overstep my bounds. Prayers are the answer. Just continue to love her and pray for her and always be their to set the proper example. Someday she'll turn around. Until then you'll just have to keep strong.

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#23

If you have any male friends or family members the two of you really trust, let them try.

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#24

[quote="Irish_Girl_68, post:17, topic:251506"]
Mentally, I know she was pressured. Physically, I do not believe so. She knows this behavior is wrong. I just think she is aware of what the culture allows and then justifies it that way.

[/quote]

She knows it's wrong, but I'm wondering if she feels that since she's lost her virginity she just can't say "no". It might be that her self worth is so damaged she just goes along with what the guy wants. Especially since in another thread you mentioned she wanted a gay friend who would not pressure her.

The boy who had told her he wished she had stopped him is not fair. 25 years ago in health class, my teacher explained the time to say no is before getting in the back seat. The onus shouldn't be on your daughter to stop a teen boy in the throes of passion. They shouldn't have put themselves in that position to begin with...but it isn't just her fault because she didn't stop him.

I don't know what else to tell you....prayers for her, being a teen now is so much harder than ever I think. When I was a teen, although teenage premarital sex was common, being a virgin meant guys thought you were a nice girl. I remember being heartbroken over a guy who would not date me because, I was a nice girl and he wasn't looking for that.

I'm not sure they care anymore.

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#25

I know I am not a man but came from a household where my sister was the one involved with boys & sex from her teen years, and I have chosen to remain a virgin til marriage. Our father did not really sit us down to set us straight, and our mother is more of a prude when it comes to those matters. I only wonder if my sister regrets her teen/young adult years or not because of her past.

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#26

It appears she is incredibly worried about what other people think of her. She doesn’t want to be “prude”. First off, by having sex with lots of different people she increases her risk for STD’s which is not a turn on for guys, trust me. Secondly I would also say how much it cheapens her. If all a guy has to do is say a few nice things, stick around for awhile, and be a decent guy before she will have sex with them, she should know guys will take advantage of this. Guys are pretty stupid sometimes, but when it comes to sex we might as well as be Sherlock Holmes. We will figure out all the tricks necessary to get it. I know a girl who has been going out with a guy for almost 3 years and been having sex with him for most of that time, and now can’t get him to pop the question. I mean why should he? He’s already got everything he would get during marriage, and marriage would lead to lots of other things that might take away from what he is getting now. That’s an economical way of looking at it. She could try to deny him sex, but then the question is just a matter of how long before he decides it isn’t worth it anymore and starts look for another of many fish in the ocean? When girls decide to allow for sex before marriage they give guys all the power in the relationship. A guy who wants sex will only put up with so much before he decides to go in search of someone who is more willingly to give it, and who will give it more often. Anyone can say “I love you” but few can actually fulfill what those words mean.

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#27

As promised, I’m posting again. I’m afraid I still can’t be of definite help in terms of how to pass the information but here are some facts from my observations:

— men can really have their brains taken away when under the influence of an attractive woman; they will say and do stupid things as dictated by that attraction and in order to advance to further steps or maintain their position (in the crudest situations this will simply be a straight track to intercourse), they will possibly not even have full use of their brains (or won’t care there are saying) when making declarations, promises etc.; it takes (not forgetting grace from above) virtue and/or training for a man (and probably woman too) to restrict or limit this effect, and women themselves are not immune to it either;
— while it may give a woman a lot of pleasure to have this kind of influence on a man, if the woman thinks again, would she prefer a an actual man who’s making choices (and choosing her because he has reasons too) or what’s essentially a playdoll, i.e. a body that isn’t controlled by a thinking brain or driven by normal emotions and feelings, which is basically the state to which a man is reduced when he gives in completely to his biological drive?

Also, from my personal point of view, it is important that a lady I am to share my life with be my friend, play in the same team. Someone who wants to get a strong sexual response out of me without giving me choice (this is particularly related to clothing and suggestive behaviour), is not behaving like my friend but rather like someone who wants to compell me, i.e. hostile. Sure, much of the time it won’t go as far as actual compulsion but a guy who’s ready to use subliminal messages to get my money for his product regardless of whether I choose to accept his offer freely, is not my friend and respectable business partner either.

What else is important is that, at least when not accompanied by higher emotions, feelings, attachment etc., sexual attraction will typically diminish pretty soon, which is probably one reason for the poor durability of relationships based purely on sexual attraction.

While I realise these points are very imperfect (and certainly aren’t fit for a sixteen year old hot-blooded girl without serious rephrasing), I hope they at least help you come up with some ideas. Please feel free to ask if you think about anything specific. I’ll be happy to answer if I only can.

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#28

No allowance until a book report is turned in on this: amazon.com/Stupid-Things-Women-Their-Lives/dp/0060976497

I don't even think the author is catholic, but her blunt style really can't be sidestepped. If nothing else, what she reads will come back to her when Dr. Laura's predictions come true.

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#29

[quote="manualman, post:28, topic:251506"]
No allowance until a book report is turned in on this: amazon.com/Stupid-Things-Women-Their-Lives/dp/0060976497

I don't even think the author is catholic, but her blunt style really can't be sidestepped. If nothing else, what she reads will come back to her when Dr. Laura's predictions come true.

[/quote]

I actually like the idea of a book report. Even if she doesn't "buy" into what she's reading, it would necessitate her reading the material closely and consider what it's saying.

I am not overly familiar with the book, but just perusing it via Amazon, I think it might be a bit over her head. That is, it appears the target audience is adult women capable of living on their own. I did check into the new Jason Evert book, however, and I think that might be more appropriate. It appears the tone and advice would be more in line with where she's at in life.

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#30

Again, not something that can be told as is to a teenager but anyway.

Attraction is a stimulant.

When a person is strongly attracted to another, certain chemical substances are released. Phenylethylamine is a psychotic drug released in such situations. As things progress, it is joined by natural versions of amphetamine (i.e. dopamine and norephetamine). All of these can be highly stimulating and even addictive. Perhaps we could say going on a date is like have a strong coffee, having sex is like getting really high. It's pleasurable and can lead to addiction. It doesn't mean the person we're attracted to in such a way is necessarily a good person or even otherwise objectively a person worthy of that attraction. We are entirely capable of falling for the wrong person. In fact, married people (which a girl should understand because she doesn't like being cheated on by her boyfriend), priests and religious are still capable of falling in love but most of them stay married or faithful to their other vows.

Also, endorphins are released when people are e.g. hugging, basically, being friendly, affectionate. In some cases, we just need or like a hug (not even implying it's sexual) and it doesn't have much to do with the specific person we hug but more with our needs. So it can release when we're hugging a random stranger too, or even a bad person, it's not necessarily an indication of actual closeness.

When people have sex, oxytocins are released and provide chemical bonding, also reducing awareness of the other person's shortcomings and defects. Thus early sexual relations come in the way of being able to assess the other person as a potential partner. Or even if some red flags are discovered, it may be too late because of the already big (chemical, not personal) attachment.

The "must have it" reflex

A child wants a toy when it sees it. Some people just must have it when they like it. Then especially if it's something addictive (alcohol, cigarettes) and nicely wrapped and well-publicised etc. An attractive and decked out girl or boy can be compared.

We just have to realise we can live without having it. That we have the power to decline and it can be better for us to decline (in fact young people may know this since they sometimes won't date someone who is ill-regarded, even if they themselves are attracted to that person). The world won't come to an end and we won't miss a unique opportunity either.

The world won't come to an end if a group of "talkers" (who are not necessarily so happy with they are doing or even are not necessarily doing whatever they're talking about so much) will not be impressed with our behaviour. Acceptance by friends is important but we can find other friends. Friends who want good for us and not those who push us to do things that make us hurt later.

Consequences

Things can be compared to drinking. We may like the short pleasure of the buzz but we certainly don't like the morning after. But we fail to make the connection or act on it and we won't give up the relatively insignificant pleasure to avoid the big bad pain that will come in the morning. Or if we have a drink or two, it may be difficult to decline the third etc.

What it takes to avoid hangovers is to stop drinking, or start drinking in moderation. What it takes to stop relationship hurts, broken hearts etc. is to behave responsibly in the relationship area.

In the world of short-term, unstable, open etc. relationships, being hurt is practically a given. Sooner or later it will happen. Look at characters in soap operas, whose relationships come and go. Even there, and even though their lifestyle is glamourised, they are not portrayed as happy people because of it; in fact, the opposite is true. Even there, they are shown as people who suffer and are unhappy unless maybe it's their work that makes them happy anyway.

Why not stop doing what's bringing so much pain? It's hard already to be rejected when asking someone out on a date, it's all the more painful when people have already been sexual with each other and bonded chemically.

Jerks are made by jerks

People who hurt others, such as jerks who hurt women, are made by being mean to them. Most abusers have been victimised themselves before. People who make their wife or husband or children suffer have been made to suffer by some other man or woman, or their parents before. Boys who treat girls as disposable or view them with suspicion or are mean to them, may very well have been treated that way by some other girl before. The same is true for the girls who treated them badly, by the way. They too are very likely to have been hurt by some boy or man in a relationship context before.

Those hurts can't be totally avoided but the sooner one leaves the world of transient relationships, the better for him and other people in his life.

If a woman doesn't want for there to be jerks who hurt women, she should be careful how she treats men. If she doesn't want to turn into a desolate, hurt woman who can only hurt others because she no longer knows how to have a normal, permanent and reasonably happy relationship (built on reliability, hard work, willingness to make sacrifices rather than following impulses), she should put some order in her relationship life.

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#31

[quote="Irish_Girl_68, post:29, topic:251506"]
I actually like the idea of a book report. Even if she doesn't "buy" into what she's reading, it would necessitate her reading the material closely and consider what it's saying.

I am not overly familiar with the book, but just perusing it via Amazon, I think it might be a bit over her head. That is, it appears the target audience is adult women capable of living on their own. I did check into the new Jason Evert book, however, and I think that might be more appropriate. It appears the tone and advice would be more in line with where she's at in life.

[/quote]

I would be careful with any books or websites and I mean any, before giving them to a young person to read. Some speakers and writers are speaking from their own personal experience without having proper qualifications (i.e. as good as what I wrote above) and I've even seen claims to private revelations somewhere. One must see if the book or website is really about Christian purity or if it's simply about some form of nostalgia for the Victorian work, bourgeois ethics etc., and how far any personal ideas of the author are going (my personal pet peeve is exclusive vs non-exclusive dating that seems to be popular among some chastity speakers in the US).

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#32

[quote="Irish_Girl_68, post:1, topic:251506"]
CAF Men: Can you please help me out? Any advice or comments you have would be appreciated. Also, your ages, if you don't mind sharing, would be helpful. Thanks and God Bless.

[/quote]

Sure, I'm 29. I've managed to stay abstinent my whole life, but I've had/have many friends/acquaintances (guys and girls) that I know not do the same beginning around the age of 15 onward. It is easy to want to conform, fit in, and do what is feels good, explore curiosity, fulfill desires and urges. But there is a reason to take the road less traveled, to raise the bar, to work hard on something rather than take the easy way out, because in the end the reward it worth it. It is the same for being chaste/abstinent/waiting.

You can compare what your daughter is doing now to anything in her life because it is all related. Having casual 'relations' with guys can be damaging for the following reasons.

Commitment: Would she go out and abandon friends whenever she had no use for them anymore? I would think she wouldn't, because there is a commitment there, trust, a bond. These guys don't have that with her and are only using her cause they know they can. The moment they find another girl they are interested in, they will drop your daughter. It is sad, but they will cause they don't care and aren't committed to her in anyway shape or form, they just want instant gratification. Your daughter could end up in a situation like this where she is 'dumped' by a guy she isn't even dating for some other girl and then that girl 'dumps' the guy after they have relations and now he will lie and sweet talk his way back with your daughter, manipulating her mentally and getting back with her until he finds someone else. These sort of toxic relationships ruin the whole concept of commitment....something that is a key element of a healthy relationship.

The harder choices are worth it: Did she ever skip watching a tv show or stay in on a weekend to study even though it was not a fun thing to do, only to be thrilled to get an A on the exam? Did she ever stand up for someone else who was in trouble or need and feel good after the situation was over? Did she ever make a personal sacrifice or something similar despite it being a tough choice to make only to get a great sense of pride afterwards? the same goes with waiting until marriage and casual sex. Waiting helps provide self worth and in the end it will all be worth it..it is tough to imagine the payoff, but it is there ( I know it has to be). To know that you are so committed to your future spouse that you will forgo sexual activity with other guys until you meet him is a true testament of faith, love, character, and values. It is never to late to start down that path either. The sense of pride she will get outweigh the challenges.

Reputation and standards: Word will get around about her behavior....people gossip in high school. Those who don't hold themselves to high(er) standards will not attract guys who do the same. The desirable guys will not be available to date because they will look down upon your daughter for her behavior. While this won't always be true, it will in the near term.

Setting an example: If she has siblings or cousins who are younger, it is important to set a good example. It isn't easy to do and sometimes isn't even fun or pleasant to take the high road or the difficult path, but it if keeps a couple others on the straight and narrow, then it is totally worth it.

Hope that helps.

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#33

[quote="chevalier, post:30, topic:251506"]

Jerks are made by jerks

People who hurt others, such as jerks who hurt women, are made by being mean to them. Most abusers have been victimised themselves before. People who make their wife or husband or children suffer have been made to suffer by some other man or woman, or their parents before. Boys who treat girls as disposable or view them with suspicion or are mean to them, may very well have been treated that way by some other girl before. The same is true for the girls who treated them badly, by the way. They too are very likely to have been hurt by some boy or man in a relationship context before.

Those hurts can't be totally avoided but the sooner one leaves the world of transient relationships, the better for him and other people in his life.

If a woman doesn't want for there to be jerks who hurt women, she should be careful how she treats men. If she doesn't want to turn into a desolate, hurt woman who can only hurt others because she no longer knows how to have a normal, permanent and reasonably happy relationship (built on reliability, hard work, willingness to make sacrifices rather than following impulses), she should put some order in her relationship life.

[/quote]

Exactly chevalier. To the OP, this is also worth mentioning to your daughter along the same lines as Chevalier, but more the consequences her actions could have against men. Many women have the attitude that "guys are jerks" and they can't find an honest guy. Well guess what, by acting in the same manner the male jerks do or by being promiscuous and not giving the studious guy in her math class or the guy that's not so hot actual true love or attention (not sex), enough women will eventually neglect those good men who would develop the traits desired for "marriage material."

This will cause the male to think a few things: They will develop a low sense of self-esteem with regard to dating and marriage and think they are not a worthy partner to pursue love. The man will then react in defense and to preserve his remaining self-esteem in tact, or worse, in the following manners:
1) They will outright reject women, and think of them as "sluts" or another derogatory term and will therefore eliminate themselves from the dating pool, leaving only more type-A or jerks for men behind for your daughter. They will therefore concentrate on themselves and become selfish financially and choose not to share their lives with any partner. "Why experience misery and unhappiness with the opposite sex when being alone will bring me more happiness?" This is quite sad because Christ meant for many of us to be married under his Church (and others to become His priests), but this will mean more men will become single that otherwize were not meant to be as a vocation.

2) If they are a religious man to begin with, this will skew his course and make him consider the priesthood, rabinical studies, etc. Hey that's sort of a good thing, but just think he might be doing it for the wrong reasons or he could have married had he been shown kindness by women.

3) They will experience such depression over the rejection that those "good" men will consider harming themselves or others out of their psychological trauma. Suicide would be an example.

4) Those "good" men will eventually say "I'm tired of this S*#^&" and decide to step up their "game" and become pseudo-alphas in order to win over the women that they seek but lose to alpha males. This has already happened in North American society in the form of "pick-up artists" who teach men sexual seduction skills to woo over women. Some are innocent, like performing magic tricks with cards or a toothpick as an opener, but other tactics are negative such as "negging" (passively insulting) friends of the girl you are trying to attract to raise her status towards you. I'm sure you can also find many of these books in your local Barnes and Noble in the section on dating and romance. What this option does in the end, is also increase the pool of "jerks" because the once good men have "joined the Alpha Club" so to speak, even if they arent alphas by nature.

In a nutshell: The "good" guys will stop being available for marriage or become jerks in retaliation to the jerks of both sexes/rejection, particularly women, and by the time your daughter is ready to settle down or desires a man of virtue and Christ-like character, those men will be gone because others have killed the Christ-like character in them. Men are just as emotional and sensitive as women are too with regard to love. We just don't tend to express it in the same manner. I'm a young man in his late twenties by the way if it helps, and I've experienced the rejection side of it too much for being more virtuous in character and having an active Catholic faith life. I was in one small relationship for a month and a 1/2 thanks to Catholicmatch.com (thanks www.catholic.com! podcasts), though I only got to the stage of discernment and not to the stage of physical affection.

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#34

[quote="chevalier, post:31, topic:251506"]
I would be careful with any books or websites and I mean any, before giving them to a young person to read. Some speakers and writers are speaking from their own personal experience without having proper qualifications (i.e. as good as what I wrote above) and I've even seen claims to private revelations somewhere. One must see if the book or website is really about Christian purity or if it's simply about some form of nostalgia for the Victorian work, bourgeois ethics etc., and how far any personal ideas of the author are going (my personal pet peeve is exclusive vs non-exclusive dating that seems to be popular among some chastity speakers in the US).

[/quote]

Chevalier, Evert is a good recommendation. He's one of Catholic Answer's primo speakers on chastity. Just click on the "Chastity" link above and click under speakers and he's there with his wife. If there was something cautious about him, CA would not have him under their official speakers roll or in their podcasts.

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#35

[quote="YoungCanRCMale, post:34, topic:251506"]
Chevalier, Evert is a good recommendation. He's one of Catholic Answer's primo speakers on chastity. Just click on the "Chastity" link above and click under speakers and he's there with his wife. If there was something cautious about him, CA would not have him under their official speakers roll or in their podcasts.

[/quote]

Yeah, it seems everything he says is okay and he has some great ideas about what subjects it's good to talk about. In fact, I very much liked some of his views, including on my personal pet peeve.

By the way, the QA could be of great use to the OP's daughter

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#36

You need your husband to care.

Not trying to bring him around in order to avoid marital problems sounds nice....but you already have a marital problem. Both of you are charged with caring for this child, and she is putting her health, mental/emotional well being, and salvation at risk. That's a marital problem to be sure.

I don't know you, but based on your original post, getting your husband to care may sound like it's impossible. You still need him. No one else can be a father for your daughter, and she needs her father.

In large part, I think girls are willing to have sex with boys because the want to FEEL loved, needed, wanted. She needs to know how much you and her father love her, need her, want her. How important she is to you both. She also needs to know how much God loves her.

Again, I'd dispute the idea that "going religious" would be a bad idea. Without our faith, what is the reason not to sleep around? Hey it feels good (at least in the short term) and it's MY body (although it's really God's). So do what you want? Right? Wrong. But the point is that without our faith, anything goes. So she needs her faith.

And her father.

You're in my prayers. God can do all things.

Pax.

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#37

Here is my take.

Girls looking for love in all the wrong places are trying to make up for a lack of relationship with their father. Either there was divorce, death, or just not able to connect. I've seen it many times (starting with my girlfriend in high school :blush:).

As a father of girls, I can tell you that it is really hard to stay close to your daughters after puberty hits. Some fathers just don't know how to handle it. You have to make a conscious effort to keep hugging and talking and not keep this emerging woman at arms length. I don't have any sisters, so this was hard for me.

My wife and I have talked to each other about this and she has seen it too, in other girls.

So, the solution to this problem is greater involvement by the father. Not preaching, not scolding, just being interested, just being involved.

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#38

[quote="Saint_Macarius, post:2, topic:251506"]
Tell her that with men, sexy and beautiful are not the same thing. Strippers are sexy. Wives are beautiful.

[/quote]

Personally, I'd find strippers more like repulsive and innocence sexy..
Is that weird? o.0

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#39

I know I am getting into this very late but...

How is she able to have sex? I am the dad to a 14 year old girl. I would never let her go out with a boy that I did not already know and who did not know me. Of course, I am a Youth Minister and any kids that know my daughter know that.

I may be totally way off, but I get the feeling she wants to have sex and both parents, deep down, really don't care. The first time can be a mistake and even a learning experience, but any more shows everyone involved is not doing everything right. Both my wife and I would lovingly make sure she knew it was wrong and she is not to do it again. These "rules" are not something that are introduced when it is needed but from the day she is able to understand.

Again, I may be way off.

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#40

Give her this book, called How To Find Your Soumate Without Losing Your Soul by Jason and Crystalina Everet:

amazon.com/Find-Your-Soulmate-Without-Losing/dp/0983092303/ref=pd_rhf_p_t_2

And by the way, ground her so she has no opportunity to have sex with anyone. If she demands to be with a boy, invite him over, chaperone any dates. You do not owe your daughter a social life. I will pray for you and your husband. He probably feels very lost over this and wishes you to handle it, but it does sound like he is part of the problem.

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