need help debating why Catholic


#1

Here lately I've been talking with some of my friends. They include Almost all forms of Religion, one including herself as "Agnostic/Atheist/Jewish(but only culturally). One of my biggest issues is why do we say the Catholic church is "THE CHURCH" so to speak. Their debate is why can't anyone believe in God but not the Catholic way. I have a hard time to say why. I know it's a sin, but not sure why. So I'm asking for your help out there friends. I know there is something from what I've heard called "infinite ignorance", where someone who has never heard of Catholicism or Christianity isn't held to the rule of believing in the church's way. So to keep this semi short please help me with this.


#2

Here; let me help you by adding more to your troubles when the Cathoilc Church states "There is No Salvation outside the Catholic Church".

The Gospel message reveals Jesus is Truth.

"God sent His Son in the fullness of time to be born of a woman"

Revealing who Jesus is "fully divine, fully human", Truth manifested in the Word of God becoming flesh.

From here, one can begin to "tell the rest of the story".

The Topic should be focused on Jesus because the Church is the body of Christ.

Read St.Paul's Epistles, he journeyed and evangelized many different peoples.


#3

Thanks Gaberial, so then why the Church in reference to Baptist or Lutheran and what not?


#4

[quote="j0ksta2000, post:3, topic:275632"]
Thanks Gaberial, so then why the Church in reference to Baptist or Lutheran and what not?

[/quote]

jOksta, it is not a mortal sin if one is unable to give an account for their faith.

A little history may be needed here in regards to Baptist or Lutherans and many other protestant denominations.

For one "all of these" came from the Catholic Church. Their founders were men who were once Catholic but protested and began their own faith church's under the man invented theology of Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura has having authority not the Church.

HIstory proves along with both historical secular powers and religions that Jesus Christ is the founder of the Catholic Church.

Martin Luther an ex-Catholic priest founded his Lutheran Church during the protestant reformaion in the 16th century.

The Baptist come from Europe, by 1535 they are commonly called Anabaptist who came under persecution by both Protestants and Catholics members. These Anabaptist remained as a remnant gathered by the ex-priest Menno Simmons.

Roger Williams, is the founder of the first Baptist church in the new world "America". Later these baptist appealed to the lower classes, black citizens, frontiersmen, and Southerners. Many of these baptist were unschooled who preached a sola fide, sola scriptura gospel by different interpretations, there main focus was separation from Church and State with no creeds only the bible.

From here in America Baptist, and many other protestant denominations begin by men and women.

Mystically because these maintain a valid baptism, they still remain under the umbrella of the Catholic Church in the body of Christ.


#5

**That helps tremendously! Thanks alot! :slight_smile:


#6

j0ksta2000,
I'll be praying for your efforts; it's great that you want to help your friends learn about the true Church.
I spent quite a few years in an Anabaptist community, so here a few issues that helped lead me to the Church. First, protestant groups all say they rely on the Bible - sola scriptura. But where did the Bible come from? This is a question you can pursue with your friends. Be prepared to explain that the Bible they rely on wouldn't exist without the Catholic Church.

Another that issue that bothered me was the fact that protestant groups all believe that the Holy Spirit teaches the correct interpretation of the Bible to each believer individually. If that is so, how can two sincere believers have two diametrically opposed interpretations? For example, some say "once saved, always saved", but others say "you can lose your salvation". These two ideas cannot both be true. We know the Holy Spirit isn't teaching some believers one thing and others something else. So we need a teaching magisterium to help us interpret Scripture in context.

Yet another question I had was why were there so many denominations, and could this be what Jesus meant by "unity"? It didn't seem to make sense to me that the Church Jesus established had lasted for 1500 years and then suddenly, he wanted it to split over and over again. That troubled me.

These are just a few areas where you might be able to start a conversation. But make sure you know your history so you can respond to their questions and comments. If you are asked about a doctrine you don't understand, make sure you do your research before you try to answer.

I pray the Holy Spirit will bless your desire to help your friends.


#7

[quote="j0ksta2000, post:5, topic:275632"]
**That helps tremendously! Thanks alot! :)

[/quote]

Your welcome there are many others here who are happy to help also.

You got quite a diversity of groups here that you are addressing "Agnostic/Atheist/Jewish". Each one will deserve an undivided attention and sharing, because each one has different perspectives of faith and God. But if you stick to Jesus you can't go wrong.


#8

Try 1Tim 3:14-16, Ask, when Paul was inspired to write this- what "Church" was he and God talking about? What churches were around back then? There was only one. Since the Church is the Pillar and Bulwark of truth are we not obligated to trust its teachings?


#9

[quote="Ron_in_minden, post:8, topic:275632"]
Try 1Tim 3:14-16, Ask, when Paul was inspired to write this- what "Church" was he and God talking about? What churches were around back then? There was only one. Since the Church is the Pillar and Bulwark of truth are we not obligated to trust** its **teachings?

[/quote]

Great post Ron; One small detail, the Catholic Church is never reverenced as "it". She is living and breathing. The Catholic Church is always referred too from biblical terminology as the body of Christ or in the female context, because She is the bride of our bride groom Jesus Christ (Ephesians 4-5.)

Peace be with you


#10

[quote="Gabriel_of_12, post:2, topic:275632"]
Here; let me help you by adding more to your troubles when the Cathoilc Church states "There is No Salvation outside the Catholic Church".

The Gospel message reveals Jesus is Truth.

"God sent His Son in the fullness of time to be born of a woman"

Revealing who Jesus is "fully divine, fully human", Truth manifested in the Word of God becoming flesh.

From here, one can begin to "tell the rest of the story".

The Topic should be focused on Jesus because the Church is the body of Christ.

Read St.Paul's Epistles, he journeyed and evangelized many different peoples.

[/quote]

With all due respect Gabriel, but you're assuming that the Gospel is the fullest source of God's truth. If this is a discussion with non-Christians, you would first need to justify and explain that assumption, before moving on to Jesus, the apostles, the Incarnation, etc.

[quote="j0ksta2000, post:1, topic:275632"]
Here lately I've been talking with some of my friends. They include Almost all forms of Religion, one including herself as "Agnostic/Atheist/Jewish(but only culturally). One of my biggest issues is why do we say the Catholic church is "THE CHURCH" so to speak. Their debate is why can't anyone believe in God but not the Catholic way. I have a hard time to say why. I know it's a sin, but not sure why. So I'm asking for your help out there friends. I know there is something from what I've heard called "infinite ignorance", where someone who has never heard of Catholicism or Christianity isn't held to the rule of believing in the church's way. So to keep this semi short please help me with this.

[/quote]

J0kasta, I think you should check what the catechism says about the Catholic Church and its relationship with other religions:

"843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood."


#11

Bezant;9024985]With all due respect Gabriel, but you’re assuming that the Gospel is the fullest source of God’s truth.

No, not the fullest just the beginning. The Church is the Pillar and foundation of Truth. Truth is revealed in Jesus who is the Head of His body the Catholic Church.

If this is a discussion with non-Christians, you would first need to justify and explain that assumption, before moving on to Jesus, the apostles, the Incarnation, etc.

Can you explain what “assumption” of Truth needs justification, Outside of the revelations of Jesus Christ?

J0kasta, I think you should check what the catechism says about the Catholic Church and its relationship with other religions:

"843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood."

The CCC is a great source that points to the spirit of ecumenism with other religions.

All CCC’s begin with “I believe” from the profession of faith in God revealed in Jesus Christ.

I agree with you one cannot neglect the wisdom of ecumenism revealed from the CCC when addressing other faith’s.


#12

The Catholic Church is “the Church” because it is the Church that Jesus Christ Himself founded by sending the Holy Spirit to the apostles on Pentecost. Pentecost is the birthday of the Church.


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.