Need help with a non-Catholic friend on the Bible


#1

Hi:
I am a Catholic that is sorta starting to read the Bible for the first time, finally. I have this friend of mine (We are like brothers) who I have known for 3 years, who’s family members were almost all Catholic, but his mom and dad never really went to church, he always did it on his own. Well, for about 2 years up until a year ago he was going from church to church every Sunday, then he found one he liked or what I would say, one that reeled him in.

Something happened between us about a week ago and since then he has been quoting the Bible, and basically is saying stuff against the Catholic views of the Bible. He says the church he goes to is nondenominational and they go only by scripture and that they do not add things or make things up. He goes on to say how the Pope is the antichrist because his title Vicarius Filii Dei adds up to 666, when I tell him that that is not a title of the Pope and that his official title is Vicarius Christi he says I am wrong that on the Popes “crown” it says Vicarius Filii Dei. He then later said “well he is a likely candidate”. I tell him that George Bush adds up too 666 and the lady who started the 7th Day Advangilist name adds up to 666, he then says they are not from Rome, that the Angel said the antichrist will come from Rome.

He asked how can we say Mary is the Queen of Heaven? I reposed with what I know about how Mary is the preeminent Christian, he says she is not. Then I talk about how in Daniel 2:37 Daniel calls the pagan king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzer, the king of kings and that it doesn’t preclude Jesus from being called by the same title, he then says it’s not the same thing.

In the past week he did mention about how we call a Priest “father” and the Pope the Holy Father, I we did not get into that area tonight, even though I had all the information about that.

The problem is he can, and will throw any Bible verse at me to “attack” any view(s) I may have, as I am not well verse in the Bible as he is, and I never will be. I tell him that we ALL “interpret” the Bible and I could very well point to Leviticus and show him that he, and his church does not follow everything the Bible says, so therefor he does not take the Bible just on Scripture. He is REALLY BIG on Revelations as well.

When he does get “vocal” I do remind him of 2 Timothy 2:24 :slight_smile:

As I said, he was a different person up until a year ago, but he argues that he did not show me this side of him then so I would not have known. But I still think this church got hold of him and he took them hook, line and sinker. And I know he has been struggling on who, and what he is for the past 3 years. As well as looking for answers as several of his other friends have either died or committed suicide the past year.

So, can anyone help me on how to handle this? As I said I could never match his knowledge of the Bible and it’s frustrating to me.

I do have other things to give anyone a better idea about what he has been going though both personally and spiritually, even up until last week, if anyone would like to email me at jhkymike@aol.com I would gladly send you some more information on this, and him to give you a better idea so you may be able to help out a little more.

I did thank him for bringing this up, as I am finding out answers myself from reading the “online version” of the Bible, and I never would have done that if he did not start talking about the Catholic views.

Thanks

jhkymike@aol.com


#2

Here’s some help: (ALL FREE)
amm.org/chss/chss.htm
biblechristiansociety.com/
catholicfirst.com/churchfathersindex.cfm
whostartedyourchurch.com/
salvationhistory.com/
catholicity.com/
catholic.com/library.asp

Pax vobiscum, :thumbsup:


#3

Hi Blake,

God Bless you for wanting to defend our faith and help your friend. It would be much easier to write him off so to speak so I think it’s great that you are trying to “speak the truth in love.” Having said that, let me ask you, are you much of debater? I for one am not, so I’ve pretty much decided that when I’m pounced on for my wacky Catholic views I don’t even go there. I carry around some great apologetic type books in my car (Rome Sweet Rome - Born Catholic, Born Again Fundamentalist etc.) and when someone wants to debate I just say straight up, “I’m not going to debate you but if you truly want to know why Catholics believe the way we do please read this book and I’d be happy to go over any points you don’t understand.” If someone is sincerely interested in our Faith they’ll take you up on it (has happened to me twice) but if they are only wanting to argue or save you from the dreaded Catholic Church they will shut up pretty quickly. Try that with your friend - my guess is he’ll say no to the books. If so, whenever he brings it up again just say, “Oh it sounds like you’ve changed your mind about reading my books… shall I get them for you?” (maybe guys don’t say “shall” - say what you want but you get my point?)

Peace to you,
CM
P.S. Don’t write him off! I WAS your friend three years ago and my “Catholic friend” I was trying to “save” led me straight to the Catholic Church! :slight_smile:


#4

OPPS! The correct title of the book is Born Fundamentalist, Born again Catholic. :o

CM


#5

Hi Blake,

Your friend is repeating things he has heard and mostly does not understand. So he is really unable to defend these points of view rationally. He will keep on bustling and flustering. He is not looking for the truth; he wants to convert YOU.

Fortunately, you have something he does not have – a mind of your own.

Do not try to rebut his “arguments”. Do correct what he claims wrongly to be the Church’s practices or doctrines. Do not let your spiritual life be led by him. You do not have to become a full-fledged apologist just for his sake.

You can also refuse to engage him. Ask him to talk about something else.

Your best bet is to lead a good Christian life and pray for your friend. Do not, I repeat, do not, let him set your agenda. If he insists on it, then you might have to reconsider the quality of his “friendship”.

Verbum


#6

Great advice Carol Marie. And I will add, PRAY, PRAY, PRAY.

Even say something like, Read this. I will pray that the Holy Spirit will open your eyes and lead you to the truth about the Catholic Church.

God Bless,
Maria


#7

is your friend reading a “real” bible (protestant version) like KJV or NRSV, or is he reading pseudo-bible like the Scofield version. If he is a cult like witnesses, SDA, Mormons they have re-written the bible to suit their own agenda, his mental processes are controlled by the cult and no amount of biblical evidence on your part is going to change him. This is a case for prayer and fasting, and the witness of a good Catholic grounded moral life on your part, not apologetics.


#8

Interesting church your friend belongs to. It looks as if they spend more energy going against Catholics than they do learning any faith.

My only comment is that perhaps he is discussing these with you because he is trying to convince himself that these things are true - bouncing them off you to see how you respond. The Beginning Apologetics books are quite helpful and come with a handy fold-out for quick references!


#9

Here’s something I found handy when I first began “debating” anti-Catholics about the Church and her Teachings.

homepages.paradise.net.nz/mischedj/ct_cheatsheet.doc

It’s a “quick-reference” sheet to help locate the Scriptural support to refute the most often cited arguments against the Catholic Church (sola scriptura, sola fide, the papacy, etc.). Although I personally read either the New American Bible or the New Jerusalem Bible, I find that using the King James Version to quote Scripture from really takes a lot of wind out of the sails of anti-Catholics. After all, it’s their Bible supporting the Catholic Church. :eek:


#10

ProudArmyWife, You know, I never thought of it this way. But I am not much of a debater, and he knows that too well, so I wouldn’t be much of a person to bounce this off of.

What I find as being interesting is three nights ago he came out of nowhere during our “discussion” online and said “you know what? Let’s meet now and talk”. He wanted us to talk about a mile away from his house where he says he goes to when he needs to “think”, But it got too late and we both decided to wait. Last night I texted him on his cell and told him I would be able to meet if he wanted, he called back and said ok lets meet at that place he goes to all the time to “think”, unfortunately my car would not start so the conversation was for about 90 mins on the phone, but im a much better debater in person.

Oh, did I mention this place he goes to “think” all the time (and the place he wanted to meet) is the grounds of a Catholic Seminary? Im just wondering if he has all this stuff against our teachings then why does he go to this place to "think? :confused:

As I said, he has a lot of stuff on his mind about who he is that I know he is struggling with that is effecting the way he has been acting the past 3 years I have known him.

Thanks
jhkymike@aol.com


#11

It’s great that he trusts you enough to have these types of conversations with you. From what you have typed, it sounds as if your discussions are more validating him as a person or validating what he has to say than that of him trying to convert you or attack the Church. Sometimes it isn’t what people are saying, but why they are saying such things.

Just think… it must be difficult for him to begin questioning the people where he searched so long for and finally found a place he felt he ‘belonged’ - especially after the deaths of close friends. It would be like losing more friendships if he questioned their teachings to them. Or, sadly, he may be trying to push you away, too, so he won’t have to deal with pain of losing another friend. Either way, you may want to encourage him to seek some counseling so he can talk over these issues with someone. Your priest maybe able to recommend a Catholic one. Many counselors are on sliding fee scales so money shouldn’t be an issue.

It seems as if the Lord is trying to pull him back with his thinking place and such! But it is ultimately up to him to listen to these messages. You are a great friend. Don’t fret if you don’t see the fruits of your labor instantly. Perhaps you planted the seed and it may take some sunshine and watering to overcome his past so he can see his future.

God Bless!


#12

My one piece of advice is to **not **to prosyletize or try to convert this person on your own. Certainly clear up any misunderstandings about the Church, but don’t push too hard, just be the best friend you can be. All you really want to do is plant the seed, and let the Holy Spirit take over. Patrick Madrid (I think it was he) had an excellent observation regarding this “approach”: in the parable of the sower, remember the sower’s job wasn’t to stand over the seed and make sure it grew, it was to sow, and then move on. The best testimony you have for the Catholic Church is you! Be the best Christian you can be, and he will see your fruit, then the seed will grow :thumbsup:


#13

Ok, to make the point about Mary being the Queen of Heaven I texted him to look at Luke 1:42-48, where Elizabeth, he then text back and said to look at Luke 8:21, and Luke 11:27-28 and said that Jesus CORRECTS ANYONE who sees Mary as anything but a woman.

Now where do I go? :confused:


#14

Ok, I just saw the new replies, and thank you all. I did go out today to buy a Bible (my eyes will thank me so they don’t have to stare at the PC screen all the time too) as well as Rome Sweet Home…


#15

Okay, here is our conversation tonight, It’s in two parts and in the next post as well, this was after I texted him Luke 1:42-48 and he replied with what I stated above, then he decided to get online to discuss this. What I find as “interesting”, He came back at me towards the end and then just left, signed off, He NEVER does that, he KNOWS he has the upper hand in a debate with me, especailly online where I don’t type so well and fast enough and he knows that frustrates me and I usually would sign off as I see I can’t win, Or did he see I have the upper hand? :slight_smile:

I know he is thinking about it, I can just feel it. As I Pray for him, I also ask you Pray for Zach as well.

Thanks again

PS. I am SO glad I found this site :slight_smile:

**ZzakK86: **[size=1] [/size]i like your verse, lol
**ZzakK86: ** you have to fish up a whole lot to counter what Jesus Christ has to say on the matter
**Jhkymike: **[size=1] [/size]Nope, its IN the Bible, as you said, it’s scritpure, LUKE 1:42-48 :wink:
**ZzakK86: **[size=1] [/size] 19Once when Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see him, they couldn’t get to him because of the crowds. 20Someone told Jesus, "Your mother and your brothers are outside, and they want to see you."21Jesus replied, “My mother and my brothers are all those who hear the message of God and obey it.”
**ZzakK86: **[size=1] [/size]you are wrong again
**ZzakK86: **[size=1] [/size]Jesus replied, “My mother and my brothers are all those who hear the message of God and obey it.”
**ZzakK86: **[size=1] [/size]oh, so it doesn’t say that?
**Jhkymike: **[size=1] [/size]I told you what is there, you will NOT sway me from this my friend :slight_smile:
**ZzakK86: **[size=1] [/size]haha, so you will ignore Christ?
**ZzakK86: **[size=1] [/size]your choice
**ZzakK86: **[size=1] [/size]i don’t need to sway you
**ZzakK86: **[size=1] [/size]you deny what Christ teaches in order for you to make a point to yourself
**ZzakK86: **[size=1] [/size]you only hurt yourself


#16

(Continued)

**ZzakK86: ** 27As he was speaking, a woman in the crowd called out, “God bless your mother–the womb from which you came, and the breasts that nursed you!”

28He replied, "Rather blessed are all who hear the word of God and put it into practice."

**Jhkymike: **[size=1] [/size]eirther on phone, but more so in person
**ZzakK86: **[size=1] [/size]i am sorry you are so desperate
**ZzakK86: **[size=1] [/size]but we ae done with this :slight_smile:
**Jhkymike: **[size=1] [/size]Noped, you are, you cannot respect my beliefs, and the TRADITION of a church
**ZzakK86: **[size=1] [/size]tradition crucified my Lord
**ZzakK86: **[size=1] [/size]and your “beliefs” are based on lies
**Jhkymike: **[size=1] [/size]You made your point, I made mine, so next aguement :wink:
**ZzakK86: **[size=1] [/size]you are clueless, lol, seek Christ, not religion, read what Scripture says, not what you want it to say. Mary was blessed to be chosen by God, but not to be exalted
**Jhkymike: **[size=1] [/size]But enough on this topic, at least until we meet :slight_smile:
[size=1]**ZzakK86: **[font=Arial] you are not seeking Christ, you are seeking to back something you already believe
[/size][/font]**ZzakK86: **[size=1] [/size]enough of this
**ZzakK86: **[size=1] I am busy now, and [/size]we have nothing to talk about tonight, good night
ZzakK86 signed off at 12:49 AM[size=1][/size]


#17

Hello Blake…your thread made me cease my lerking and register :smiley: Jesus was a Jew, and we all know how good Jewish boys honor their Mama’s…right? He also gave her to us as our mother (at the cross), and it it commanded that we honor our Mother and Father…and so isn’t it fitting that we honor Mary? I wouldn’t want to be standing next to your friend in Heaven when he has to explain to our Lord why he talked so poorly about our Mother…

Last time I had this conversation with a Fundy…I simply said, do you believe that Jesus was God as well as man (Yes…usually) and Mary is his mother (yes), then Mary is the Mother of God (Fundy’s brain is imploding)…If he says no than repeat because 2+2=4

As far as communion with the Saints…Jesus himself did so! He spoke to Elijah and Moses ( Mathew ch. 17:3)

Also…remember…only one Apostle made it to the cross, the other’s ran and hid in fear, and the one that made it to the cross was holding Mary’s hand. Mary will help us to if we hold her hand!

Peace
Lillith


#18

I love that Lillith! That is absolutely beautiful.

:blessyou:


#19

Carol Marie: As you may have read above I did go out and buy Rome Sweet Home, and already I THANK YOU so very much.

Okay I will be honest, I am an emotional and sensitive kind of guy, I am a sucker for a sad movie, as well as emotional other times each week due to my depression.

But, I am only on page 8 and already I am in tears (a bit), I really don’t know why either. Thinking back I could place a finger on what made me emotional, I even asked God after the second page to help me from getting emotional (it wasn’t that bad at on that page). I am wanting to TRY and NOT to read this as a Catholic, to maybe see what my friend may see in the book when I give it to him to read.

But no! Page 7 did me in When Scott went to his former friend’s house (Dave) after two years of them not talking to each other as Dave did not want any part of Scott because he had changed. It just happened to be Scott arrived at his house just as Dave was going to go out and hang himself. Why can’t I read this and not shed a tear?

I was only going to read the first chapter this morning, But I better make some coffee as I have an idea I am going to be reading past the first chapter.

Thanks again for recommending this book.:thumbsup:


#20

[quote=puzzleannie]is your friend reading a “real” bible (protestant version) like KJV or NRSV, or is he reading pseudo-bible like the Scofield version. If he is a cult like witnesses, SDA, Mormons they have re-written the bible to suit their own agenda, his mental processes are controlled by the cult and no amount of biblical evidence on your part is going to change him. This is a case for prayer and fasting, and the witness of a good Catholic grounded moral life on your part, not apologetics.
[/quote]

FYI. Mormons use the KJV but I do agree that logic probably won’t work with any of the groups you mentioned.


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.