need help..

Hi :slight_smile:

I was talking on another forum here at CAF about apparitions of Mary… and the poster said that the Fatima apparitions are not actually Our Lady because of the Miracle of the Sun… he said, the Miracle of the Sun is a lot like what it says in Revelation about the ‘beast’ making ‘fire fall down from heaven’.

(you might have seen this thread if you go to the “non Catholic religions” forum)

Another apparition was being discussed too, but it’s one that’s not approved by the Church,

I was wondering, what do you all think about Fatima and the Miracle of the Sun? How can it be said to be DIFFERENT than what Revelation says? I think in context, it is different… but can anyone help me out? This has been bothering me actually.

Here is the passage from Revelation:

The Beast out of the Earth
11Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon. 12He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men. 14Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.
18This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man’s number. His number is 666.

If it’s a beast that is supposed to come ‘out of the earth’, then it can’t be a spirit pretending to be Mary, I think it must be a man. Also, it says that the purpose of the mark is so that “no one could buy or sell” unless they have the mark… and this is completely unrelated to the Mary apparitions. Also, there’s mention of the other beast who was almost killed, but lived, and how this new beast would have an image of him made, and the image would speak… again, I can’t relate this to anything.

the ONLY thing that still bothers me, is the part about the fire coming down from heaven.

Here is what happened in Fatima:

According to many witness statements, after a downfall of rain, the dark clouds broke and the sun appeared as an opaque, spinning disk in the sky. It was said to be significantly less bright than normal, and cast multicolored lights across the landscape, the shadows on the landscape, the people, and the surrounding clouds. The sun was then reported to have careened towards the earth in a zigzag pattern, frightening some of those present who thought it meant the end of the world. Some witnesses reported that their previously wet clothes became “suddenly and completely dry.” The miracle was attributed by believers to Our Lady of Fátima, an apparition of the Blessed Virgin Mary to three young shepherd children in 1917, as having been predicted by the three children on 13 July, 19 August, and 13 September 1917. The children reported that the Lady had promised them that she would on 13 October reveal her identity to them and provide a miracle "so that all may believe."
According to these reports, the miracle of the sun lasted approximately ten minutes. The three children also reported seeing a panorama of visions, including those of Jesus, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and of Saint Joseph blessing the people.

It doesn’t really sound like “fire came down from heaven to earth”… when I read that part in the Bible, I always imagine it to be actual fire. Not the sun. If it was the sun, it would have said so…

but then this next part bothers me:

John Haffert (author and founder of the Blue Army of Fatima) explains the meaning of the Miracle of the Sun as a vision of the Great Chastisement. The two hundred witnesses he personally interviewed while researching his book “Meet The Witnesses” reported similar descriptions of the sun careening towards the earth and a sense of the end of the world. He compares this description to a Roman Catholic Church recognized vision of the Blessed Virgin Mary on October 13, 1973 to Sister Agnes Katsuko Sasagawa in Akita Japan Our Lady of Akita, in which she recorded: “As I told you, if men do not repent and better themselves, the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all humanity. It will be a punishment greater than the deluge, such as one will never have seen before. Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead.” "Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, in June 1988, approved the Akita events as “reliable and worthy of belief” due to several extraordinary miracles that took place supporting the authenticity of the apparitions as well as investigations conducted by the local Bishop Ito

I think it’s a good guess that the miracle of the sun refers to a possible future chastisement… But what I’m wondering is, how is this different from what Revelation says? because in this quote, it says “fire will fall from the sky”

Does anyone have any ideas?

after some more thought… I’m leaning towards the idea that the Miracle of the Sun was a warning of the chastisement… (and I don’t think the devil or ‘the beast’ even has such authority, I think if fire were to come down from heaven as a punishment and destroy half the human race, it wouldn’t be an action of the ‘beast’… but of God. I think what Revelation is referring to, is the ‘beast’ making fire come down as a type of a trick, to impress people.)

In addition, the rest of the passage in Revelation doesn’t fit… it seems that this ‘beast’ would be a man, and his ‘mark’ would affect the economy in some way… it doesn’t seem related to Mary apparitions.

So I think that the apparitions really are Our Lady…

but what are your thoughts on this?

I feel like I’m really kind of struggling with my faith :frowning: I don’t have any doubts about the Church’s doctrines or teachings about Mary… I think they are all true. And I know there’s so much support for everything the Church says about Our Lady. But I’m really struggling anyways, cause I have this fear, what if everything I believe is wrong, and I’ll go to hell for it, and what if I’ve been deceived. But I think this fear is from the devil cause it only causes confusion and I have no peace at all. When God was first showing me about Our Lady, I ALWAYS felt so much peace.

Can you please say a prayer for me? :frowning:

I think debating in general just gets me confused…

I think that the miracle of the sun at Fatima was probably a warning… and not like what Revelation says about the “beast”. And it concerned the sun, not fire… the sun just turned different colours. But I’m really scared, what if my interpretation is wrong??

my devotion to Mary is very important to me… but for the past two days, I’ve been worrying, what if I’ve been deceived about it.

I’m a convert, and when I was converting to the Church, I went through so much doubt too. Sometimes, they come back :frowning: I tend to think it’s from the enemy…

does anyone have any thoughts?

  1. The Fatima devotion is approved by the Church. It is not a mandatory belief, but is worth noting that we are in the true Church, led by the Holy Spirit, and cannot be deceived or teach error in faith or morals. Good place to start.

  2. Francisco and Jacinta are ‘Blessed’ and likely on the road to being canonized. Sister Lúcia will very likely be canonized as well. Why don’t you pray to them for help? I’m sure they would!

  3. Our Lady promised a miracle in response to a request; the dancing sun is what happened to fulfill that promise. I personally doubt it was any kind of warning and don’t see how it could be. But I can see how it might have been meant to be a bit scary, as it was requested for belief instead of acknowledging that the children were being truthful without it.

  4. Jesus is going to reign on Earth so I doubt He’d destroy the sun on the way down or afterwords. The fire coming down from the sky, if you’d like to take it literally, would probably either be meteors or man made bombs.

Hope that helps a bit.

thank you :slight_smile:

I didn’t realize that the miracle of the sun was an answer to a request, because they didn’t believe what the children were saying… that makes sense :slight_smile:

the ‘beast’ does seem to be a human, not only because it says he will come from the earth, but also because the “mark of the beast” seems to be associated with the economy or ‘buying and selling’…

I don’t know what it means when it says that he will cause fire to come down from heaven… it could be meteors, for all we know. :wink:

I’ve been praying about all this… and then I went and re-read my conversion story, and remembered all the Our Lady had done in my life and how she’s lead me closer to God… and I have to say that I do feel much better now, it’s strange but sometimes I go through a lot of doubt, and it seems to come out of nowhere… it’s happened before. I think that maybe the doubt and fear is from the devil.

I do believe in the Church and everything it teaches :slight_smile:

God bless

one big reason I believe in Fatima is because of the messages and the prayers that were given to the children… I dont think a demon could teach such prayers:

“O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy. Amen.”

“My God, I believe, I adore, I trust and I love Thee! I beg pardon for all those that do not believe, do not adore, do not trust and do not love Thee.”

"Most Holy Trinity, I adore Thee! My God, my God, I love Thee in the Most Blessed Sacrament. "

“O Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I adore Thee profoundly. I offer Thee the most precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges and indifferences by which He is offended. By the infinite merits of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary I beg the conversion of poor sinners.”

I’m quite sure the harassment of doubts, confusion and fears are from the devil. God doesn’t operate in that way. God makes reason clear, not clouded. The three great virtues are, according to Scripture, “faith, hope and love.” Doubt is the enemy of faith and fear the enemy of hope. These feelings are not from God. You rightly see the enemy in them, and would do well to clasp hard to your Guardian Angel, St. Michael the Archangel and your Mother and mine, praying for protection.

May God bless and protect you from all evil.

A false interpretation of the prophecy from Revelation would be that Fatima is a sign of the beast. However, consider that Revelation 12 says that the Mother of Jesus appears as a sign in heaven, “clothed with the sun.” Is this not exactly what happened at Fatima?

In addition to Rev. 12’s parallels to Fatima, we have this prophecy by Jesus Himself:

At Fatima, just as was prophesied 2,000 years ago, the powers of heaven were shaken (the sun danced) and there were signs seen in the sun. Not all the prophecy is fulfilled, and the final fulfillment may yet be hundreds of years away. But as the writers of Scripture say, all the times from the time of Christ’s Ascension to the time of His return in glory are the last days. One more message we can therefore see in this sign at Fatima is a reminder that Christ is coming back and the world had best prepare itself for the coming of its King.

The fact that Jesus prophesied great signs in the heavens, including specifically in the sun, and that the powers of heaven would be shaken, just as the sun danced, should be a comfort. He said this would be a sign that “your redemption is at hand.” And as Rev. 12 says, Mary is a great sign in Heaven, “clothed with the sun.” That she appeared at Fatima clothed in her heavenly garments should not surprise us. She’s simply being Biblical :stuck_out_tongue: :). God bless! :thumbsup:

that has been my experience too! whenever something was from God, I always had such clarity about it. (even if I found it difficult to accept ;)) there was never confusion. But with this, there’s sooo much confusion. :frowning: the interesting thing is, is whenever I’d pray the Rosary, I’d feel so much better… so I think that’s a sign…

The three great virtues are, according to Scripture, “faith, hope and love.” Doubt is the enemy of faith and fear the enemy of hope. These feelings are not from God. You rightly see the enemy in them, and would do well to clasp hard to your Guardian Angel, St. Michael the Archangel and your Mother and mine, praying for protection.

:thumbsup:

May God bless and protect you from all evil.

A false interpretation of the prophecy from Revelation would be that Fatima is a sign of the beast. However, consider that Revelation 12 says that the Mother of Jesus appears as a sign in heaven, “clothed with the sun.” Is this not exactly what happened at Fatima?

actually that’s very interesting, and I never thought of that before! :slight_smile: that’s a good idea… :thumbsup: and when I read the part in Revelations about the beast, I always think of it as real fire coming down to earth, not the sun appearing to fall towards the earth after moving around the sky and changing colours =)

one other thing that confused me about the “miracle of the sun” is that it allegedly also happened in Medjugorje, but those apparitions are not approved and from what I hear, the local bishop spoke against them. But after some thought, I decided that *IF *Medj. is from the enemy, it just means that he made this false miracle to make people think it’s like Fatima…so that they’d believe it. But the miracle of the sun at Fatima happened for a different reason, so that the people would believe the children…

In addition to Rev. 12’s parallels to Fatima, we have this prophecy by Jesus Himself:

At Fatima, just as was prophesied 2,000 years ago, the powers of heaven were shaken (the sun danced) and there were signs seen in the sun. Not all the prophecy is fulfilled, and the final fulfillment may yet be hundreds of years away. But as the writers of Scripture say, all the times from the time of Christ’s Ascension to the time of His return in glory are the last days. One more message we can therefore see in this sign at Fatima is a reminder that Christ is coming back and the world had best prepare itself for the coming of its King.

The fact that Jesus prophesied great signs in the heavens, including specifically in the sun, and that the powers of heaven would be shaken, just as the sun danced, should be a comfort. He said this would be a sign that “your redemption is at hand.” And as Rev. 12 says, Mary is a great sign in Heaven, “clothed with the sun.” That she appeared at Fatima clothed in her heavenly garments should not surprise us. She’s simply being Biblical :stuck_out_tongue: :). God bless! :thumbsup:

that’s a great explanation, and I like the simplicity of it too =) thanks brother! God bless =)

I really wish I had stronger faith :frowning: why do I doubt so easily.

Now it feels so obvious to me that there’s nothing wrong with Fatima or devotion to Mary. But before I was so confused.

I think everyone has doubts from time to time. I know that I do. That’s why it’s called faith. Just remember that God knows your heart and He knows that you are sincerely seeking Him. He will not give you stones when you ask for bread.

Also, remember all He has done for you. He took on the form of humanity, lived a life on this earth and suffered greatly just for you (and all of us). He knew we would be terrible sinners and He could have just chucked it all and said, ‘forget humanity – too much trouble; let’s move on to creation plan b.’ But He didn.t He created us, nurtured us, saved us and is sanctifying us. He wants you in heaven more than you do.

So just trust in Him and seek the Truth. God knows you love Him, imperfectly as all humans do, and are doing your best. :slight_smile:

God bless,
Dan

The existence of feelings of doubt do not mean you don’t have faith. In fact, persevering in spite of doubt shows your faith, and this is something I’ve seen that you do every time a new worry or fear comes up. You have faith, for you stick to the Church consistently, seeking help and answers, no matter what your feelings tell you. This I have seen in you, so I don’t think faith is actually your problem. Out of whack feelings, worries, is the real problem, though they aren’t a grave problem, for you can’t control your feeling of these harassments and they are no stain on your soul. Your faith is holding you steady.

In fact, your faith is doing for you what the Scripture says it should do for the righteous man. It has been for you a strong shield with which all the fiery darts of the enemy are put out (Eph. 6:16). You have stood firm in faith, remaining in Christ and His Church, no matter what doubts hit you. I don’t have any doubt whatsoever about the strength of your faith. In fact, it may be that God is allowing these trials in order to give you that strength of faith that involves relying on Him alone, whatever our emotions are yelling at us. For I have seen you do this time and again; Christ has made you extremely skilled at this.

Your sensible feelings do not represent your devotion or steadiness in unity with God. Your sensible feelings are lying to you a lot, but God, through your faith, has been extinguishing those doubts, confusions and fears every time.

Emotions and sensible feelings are not the same thing as faith. Faith is believing, standing firm even when your feelings are against you. You have been standing with God and are girded with a great shield of faith you’re skilled at using adeptly. I see this all the time in your perseverance and incessant seeking after God. No matter what the worry, you seek the answers and stand firm in your love and faith. You paid a price to enter the Catholic Church and you love her dearly, and for that reason these worries are a harassment but they have no power over your soul’s constancy to God.

Your heart is definitely in the right place, and it’s plain to me that it would be nonsense to ever suggest you might leave the Church over one of these fits of doubts. For these doubts are not in the core of your being. In your soul, you are steady to God, but your emotions are what’s out of whack. They are causing you suffering, but they do not control your behavior or your allegiance to God, for you are protecting these things by living in faith.

Now that post got a bit redundant, but I think my point was clear enough ;). Lol.

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