Need interpretation


#1

“Jesus answered and said unto him, John 3: 3: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Can someone please explain what Jesus meant here?


#2

Read the next portion"…How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born again? 5Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost,…’’

So how one is born again is by water and the Holy Spirit. The water is the water He speaks about in John 4, the water Jesus gives (through his words/the gospel) and from that it will ‘‘spring up into life everlasting’’ by the indwelling of the HS. The next verses talk a bit about how the Spirit functions in that when He comes you will not know but it will happen all of a sudden.


#3

Baptism.


#4

Yes I have read that all, but does that mean baptism after the age of accountability?:confused:


#5

No because the Holy Spirit received through Baptism is a free gift, an unmerited favor. There is nothing we have to do to earn it. Not even wait till we understand it.


#6

Exactly. But the Spirit breathes where He will so that rebirth comes at the judgment of God’s will. (Now God wills that no one should perish so one must assume children before the age of accountability have life through Christ, they are just unaware of it or are later made unaware of it.) But it is when the Spirit comes in our life that you become aware of the ‘‘free gift in life in Jesus Christ’’. And upon the reception of the Spirit in an active way, ie ‘‘tasting the heavenly fruit’’, you learn the following ‘‘8And when he is come, he will convince the world of sin, and of justice, and of judgment. 9Of sin: because they believed not in me. 10And of justice: because I go to the Father; and you shall see me no longer. 11And of judgment: because the prince of this world is already judged.’’

So first you will see Christ as the only way to believe, secondly that He is the Lamb of the world and can no longer die (having gone to the Father), and of judgment because Satan and the order of things before; put Him, an Innocent, to death.


#7

is this from the catechism?


#8

Hi there!.

I want to point out something to you. This is what you said before.

You were right in saying that the Holy Spirit will spring up into life everlasting. That is the action of the baptismal water we receive at baptism and why we dip our hands in the baptismal font and bless ourselves in remembrance of our baptism. We don’t know when that ‘ahha’ moment will happen but when it does, we know it. Many children are even called by God when they are very very young. I’ve heard it said from one person they thought they had a calling from God while they were in their mothers womb. This grace comes from God and though it is in us from baptism even though we may not ‘feel’ it as an infant. It is not dependent on our feeling, though through desire for the Lord grace grows. Like the mustard seed, from the smallest seeds grows the largest of plants! It is like the wellspring that springs up and flows freely…!

The water which gives life is baptismal water, it’s also called living water because it’s sourcedoes when it is planted near a stream… is Jesus Christ is the flowing water so that we can grow "spiritually’ as the tree and branches need a source of water to continue to grow. That water is our baptismal water that saves us by making us a child of God.

John 3: 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can Now read the scripture about Nicodemus. anyone be born after having grown old? Can one enter a second time into the mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of ‘water and Spirit.’

Keep the words ‘water and spirit’ together and you can see this.

Now this scripture makes sense in that light. Here we learn that Baptism was prefigured in the story of Noahs ark where those saved were saved by ‘water’.

1 Peter 3: He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, 20 who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you—not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for[f] a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers made subject to him.

and the scriptures where St. John the Baptist speaks of Jesus who will baptize with water for repentance, but Jesus baptizes ((( (with water) with the Holy Spirit. ))))

Matthew 3: 11 “I baptize you with[a] water for repentance, but one who is more powerful than I is coming after me; I am not worthy to carry his sandals**. He will baptize you with** the Holy Spirit and fire.

So if you can picture this, the water having the Holy Spirit in it because it is Spiritual Holy Water… It’s not just any water, it’s sanctified Holy Water. How can it be? Because Jesus says that it is so it is. Jesus in fact commands that this baptism will make them disciples.

Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

In fact, Peter confirms that we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit in baptism.

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

And it does say in the catechism that we receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit through our baptism. Baptism is a rite of initiation into the Church that is shared with the community as a welcoming rite, it welcomes us into the Kingdom as a Child of God, we receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit from it. It sanctifies us and makes us holy because it removes any impurities off our soul. That’s why it is the first sacrament we receive.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm

Whew theres’ a lot there but I hope it answers questions. Peace…


#9

**Lev. 12:3 **- The circumcision of eight-day old babies was the way of entering into the Old Covenant.

Col. 2:11-12 - Baptism is the new “circumcision” for the New Covenant. Therefore, baptism is for babies as well as adults.

**Mt. 18:2-5 **- Jesus says unless we become like children we cannot enter into heaven. Therefore, why would they be excluded from baptism?

Acts. 16:15,33;18:8; 1Cor. 1:16 – Whole households were baptized. Therefore, none who resided in the house were excluded. All, including infants were born-again in Christ.

**Eph. 1:1,6:1 **- Paul addresses the “saints” of the Church, and among these were the children he exhorted to obedience. Children become saints of the Church only through baptism.

*“For He came to save all through means of Himself–all, I say, who through Him are born again to God–infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men.” *
St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies (A.D. ~180)

“And they shall baptise the little children first. And if they can answer for themselves, let them answer. But if they cannot, let their parents answer or someone from their family.”
St. Hippolytus of Rome, Apostolic Tradition (A.D. ~215)

*“For this reason, moreover, the Church received from the apostles the tradition of baptizing infants too.” *
Origen, Homily on Romans (A.D. ~244)


#10

sorry about the mistakes in above post. My mouse has gone mouse happy!


#11

Thanks everybody!


#12

Baptism is necessary for salvation.


#13

John 3:3 does not refer to baptism. If it did, how could Jesus say to Nicodemus, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things?” How could Jesus expect Nicodemus to know about baptism?

Rather, Jesus was referring to scripture…which he would definitely expect a teacher of Israel to know. He was referring to Ezekiel 36: 25 - 27, " I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules"

This is the promise of the New Covenant, which is given to those with faith in Christ. The Spirit is not received through baptism. If it was, then that would contradict what Jesus says in John 3:7-8, “You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” No one can control the wind…not even the Catholic Church.

Also, if it meant baptism, that would contradict what Jesus says in John 3:14-15, “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.” and John 3:16, “For God so loved the world,that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” and John 3:18, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

If being born again means baptism, then everything Jesus says in His conversation with Nicodemus would be a contradiction.

By the time the subject of baptism comes up, it is after travelling, and is a change of subject, not a continuation of the same topic.


#14

They were baptizing before Jesus began preaching. John the Baptist was baptizing in the Jordan.

Yes, baptism now cleanses us of the stain of Original Sin. We receive the Holy Spirit in Baptism.

The Catholic Church isn’t trying to control the wind, it is trying to carry out the will of God.

God tells us to be baptized, so we do it. This is not an either or situation. We baptize because we believe in Jesus. Jesus also said,

John 14: 21
Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him.”

No it doesn’t

Not true. The Apostles also baptized. All who entered the Church were baptized.


#15

So what exactly did he mean???


#16

He meant what he said! Even Jesus was baptized. Jesus showed us how to live.


#17

Do you actually want to know? The answer to that question is in your Bible. I can spend an hour quoting scripture to you, but I don’t know if that would be of any use. John 6:44, Deuternonomy 29:4, Matthew 11:25, Ephesians 4:18

Here’s the question….if the Catholic Church can actually control the wind (ie. The Holy Spirit), by forcing Him to indwell all babies that are baptized in the Catholic Church, and then seal them with that same Holy Spirit through the sacrament of confirmation, then why is there no evidence of the Holy Spirit dwelling in so many people who have been baptized? Why can it be that someone whom the Catholic Church claims to be indwelled by the Holy Spirit can hate God and love sin? That does not make sense with what the Bible tells us about the Holy Spirit and what He does to those He indwells.

I for one know that I was not indwelled by the Holy Spirit until I was 19. Even though I was baptized in the Catholic Church as an infant I was not born again through all those years. But when I first believed the gospel at 19, I knew I was born again because my life was changed and I became a new person. If the Holy Spirit indwells you, He changes everything. You can maybe resist Him for a day or two, but He is not so weak as to be resisted for a lifetime. He changes our understanding, and He changes our will.


#18

I totally understand, and what I meant by that question was this, the catechism contradicts what you are saying, and when I mentioned this, I am accused of not following dogma.


#19

It DOES refer to baptism.

D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:

Ver. 5. Unless a man be born again of water, and the Holy Ghost. Though the word Holy be now wanting in all Greek copies, it is certainly the sense. **The ancient Fathers, and particularly St. Augustine in divers places, from these words, prove the necessity of giving baptism to infants: and by Christ’s adding water, is excluded a metaphorical baptism. **See also Acts viii. 36. and x. 47. and Titus iii. 5. (Witham) — Except a man be born again. That is, unless you are born again by a spiritual regeneration in God, all the knowledge which you learn from me, will not be spiritual but carnal. But I say to you, that neither you nor any other person, unless you be born again in God, can understand or conceive the glory which is in me. (St. Chrysostom)


#20

See also Acts viii. 36. and x. 47. and Titus iii. 5. (Witham) — Except a man be born again. That is, unless you are born again by a spiritual regeneration in God, all the knowledge which you learn from me, will not be spiritual but carnal. But I say to you, that neither you nor any other person, unless you be born again in God, can understand or conceive the glory which is in me. (St. Chrysostom)

Can you not see how this quote has nothing to do with baptism? Baptism does not make one regenerate! I know many baptized (catholic) unregenerate people.

The reason what I am saying contradicts the Catechism is because the Catechism contradicts the Word of God. Not just on this subject, but on many.

Matthew 15:6, Galatians 5:1, Galatians 1:8-9.


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