Need trustworthy sources on crusades / inquisition


#1

I am in a cyber-discussion with someone who has read a lot of things about the Crusades and Inquisition painting the Church in a very unfavorable light. I know that this is just one side of the story, and I’ve read just enough apologetics on this subject to know that many of these “historical” claims have been disputed and are not entirely accurate.

Unfortunately, all I can say is that I do not believe he is getting both sides of the story. I personally have not read up much on either of these subjects. I am ill-prepared to offer books which I believe will shed a more balanced view of these events, and I want to make sure I do not do more damage than good.

I have promised him that I would try to get a list of books and authors to present the other side, and he sees open to it.

I will take any trusted work, but I would also like to include something that is perhaps a balanced view from a “non-Church” source, if available. I suspect that if I simply list a bunch of Orthodox Catholic apologetical authors, it will be less credible to him, as he has no particular love for the Church (at least not yet… we’re working on it :wink: ).

I would be indebted to any input. If there is another thread that can help, by all means re-direct me. I don’t get here all that often, and unfortunately do not have much time to review past topics.


#2

Anything from Hillaire Belloc is wonderful and well researched

[quote=gomer tree]I am in a cyber-discussion with someone who has read a lot of things about the Crusades and Inquisition painting the Church in a very unfavorable light. I know that this is just one side of the story, and I’ve read just enough apologetics on this subject to know that many of these “historical” claims have been disputed and are not entirely accurate.

Unfortunately, all I can say is that I do not believe he is getting both sides of the story. I personally have not read up much on either of these subjects. I am ill-prepared to offer books which I believe will shed a more balanced view of these events, and I want to make sure I do not do more damage than good.

I have promised him that I would try to get a list of books and authors to present the other side, and he sees open to it.

I will take any trusted work, but I would also like to include something that is perhaps a balanced view from a “non-Church” source, if available. I suspect that if I simply list a bunch of Orthodox Catholic apologetical authors, it will be less credible to him, as he has no particular love for the Church (at least not yet… we’re working on it :wink: ).

I would be indebted to any input. If there is another thread that can help, by all means re-direct me. I don’t get here all that often, and unfortunately do not have much time to review past topics.
[/quote]


#3

Thanks for asking this question - I was about to post it today, myself. It seems that the one thing you can count on from Protestants is that they will ALWAYS bring up the Crusades and the Inquisition. I have briefly touched on them in my studies but I would like something more indepth.

Any other good suggestions? Hillaire Belloc is great one - Thanks.


#4

Hi,

Try a search oin the on-line catholic encyclopedia. It will have links to important people and events. There is a catholic history book titled "Triumph’ whose author escapes me, which has an excellent explanation of what the crusades really were about.

David


#5

[quote=gomer tree]I am in a cyber-discussion with someone who has read a lot of things about the Crusades and Inquisition painting the Church in a very unfavorable light.
[/quote]

I’d have to ask, what conclusion is he then drawing about the Church from these incidents? The Church Militant is comprised of sinners. But that can’t be a proof that the Church is not true, as it would be a proof against any other claimant, also. He’s not clainming his group is free of sinners, is he?


#6

[quote=gomer tree]I am in a cyber-discussion with someone who has read a lot of things about the Crusades and Inquisition painting the Church in a very unfavorable light. I know that this is just one side of the story, and I’ve read just enough apologetics on this subject to know that many of these “historical” claims have been disputed and are not entirely accurate.

Unfortunately, all I can say is that I do not believe he is getting both sides of the story. I personally have not read up much on either of these subjects. I am ill-prepared to offer books which I believe will shed a more balanced view of these events, and I want to make sure I do not do more damage than good.

I have promised him that I would try to get a list of books and authors to present the other side, and he sees open to it.

I will take any trusted work, but I would also like to include something that is perhaps a balanced view from a “non-Church” source, if available. I suspect that if I simply list a bunch of Orthodox Catholic apologetical authors, it will be less credible to him, as he has no particular love for the Church (at least not yet… we’re working on it :wink: ).

I would be indebted to any input. If there is another thread that can help, by all means re-direct me. I don’t get here all that often, and unfortunately do not have much time to review past topics.
[/quote]

TAN BOOKS do a good book on it. Totally unbalanced :smiley:


#7

[quote=D Bruce]Hi,

Try a search oin the on-line catholic encyclopedia. It will have links to important people and events. There is a catholic history book titled "Triumph’ whose author escapes me, which has an excellent explanation of what the crusades really were about.

David
[/quote]

TRIUMPH–The Power and the Glory of the Catholic Church. A 2000 year history. by H.W. Crocker III.

But I’m sure that there are other volumes directed more specifically to the Crusades and Inquisition. You might also look for works by Warren Carroll.


#8

Is this person coming from a secular viewpoint? If he is a Protestant (or even if he’s not), I’m betting most of the (mis)information he has now about the Crusades/Inquistion has come from biased Protestant sources (as most secular history about these events is based on anyway). If that is the case, how can he in all fairness expect you to provide materials from non-Catholic sources? Sounds like you may volunteering to fight with one hand tied behind your back.

In addition to the recommendations above, here are a couple of links to get you started from the Catholic Educators Resource. You’ll probably pick up some book references from these articles:

Crusades
catholiceducation.org/links/search.cgi?query=crusades

Inquisition
catholiceducation.org/links/search.cgi?query=inquisition&submit.x=16&submit.y=18


#9

here’s a start…catholic.com/library/inquisition.asp


#10

When talking about this time in history don’t forget “CONTEXT” too. Bring out what the society was like and what other societies around the world were like. Don’t forget to mention the great things the Church accomplished too.

Our society today with its political correctness and vegan eating happits and lack of fur clothing was not what society was like then. We are a touchy feelly society with easily hurt feelings and no great fear in life day to day. A pampered and luxery society that Jesus warned us about.

Also bring out Scripture text that supports the inquisition. Yes its there.

Admit that not all Catholics are good Catholics and give prime examples like Luther, Calvin and Zwinglui, etc… The Church is good but people are sinners. Because Charles Manson was evil are all Americans bad? Context.

You might also note that the inqusition ended because the Pope stopped. It got out of control of the Church and thats why it took so long to end.

Do not the Catholics have the right to manage their own Church and protect it? Cannot the Baptists kick out members they choose to kick out too?

Mt 18:15-18 "15 “If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. 16 If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. 18 Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”


#11

Check out the 3-CD set Fire and Sword: Crusade, Inquisition, Reformation

by Matthew Arnold. I have it and highly recommend it.

Available at saintjoe.com/p/prod_desc.pl?id=325

Grace to you,
Paul


#12

I cannot speak for the Crusades. However, on the inquistion read
INQUISTION by Edward Peters. It is objective and very scholarly source by a leading Secular Historian. It was written in 1988 and takes advantage of recent historical research on Inquisition records that survive. He covers the history of the inquistion from its forerunners in the Roman Empire to developement in Christendom. He meticously sifts through Inquisition records and separates the facts from polemic myths. One interesting aspect covered is he overviews not only the institution itself but protestant literature that contributed to the myth from early pamphlets to FOX’s BOOK OF MARTYRS to Edgar Alan Poe’s PIT AND THE PENDULUM. One quote from this book that sticks in my mind is “Inquisitions existed.The INQUISTION is a myth”. He also gives examples of so-called Protestant Inquisitions. At one one point he makes mentions of a forgotten Protestant book pushed in England in 1700-1800s called “On the New England Inquisition”.
One other source I aware is the BBC documentary on the inquisition which was aired on EWTN but I’ve heard its difficult to obtain a copy of it.

Hope this Helps


#13

The best book available on the Spanish Inquisition is The Spanish Inquisition: A Historical Revision by Henry Kamen. He is a well respected historian who has studied this topic for over thirty years. Another bonus to using this book is that you cannot be criticized for using a Catholic source that puts a positive spin on the Inquisition because Mr. Kamen is Jewish. :thumbsup:


#14

An interesting aspect of the Crusades is the way they are viewed by the General Population. When I went to public grammar school (in the 50’s)
The Crusade’s were generally viewed in a positive light. The term Crusader also had positive connotations. It was someone noble. Especially in the English literature of the 19th and early 20th century. The Catholic prospective was downplayed and British nationalism exaggerated.Only with the advent of PC did the
this become a Catholic issue.


#15

A far as the inquisition goes.
Most people don’t understand the reason, or scope
A start would be agree first on what it was(there were actually
many)
Usually its the “Spainish Inquisition” that they know about.
People usually don’t know that the jurisdiction of the tribunial was limited to Church Members, and its purpose was to find out heritics pretending to be loyal Catholic’s.
Considering the state of the legal systems everywhere in Europe at the time it was actually pretty progressive. Most peole preferred this tribunial to the political legal systems of the day
Also point out that England and Spain where a constant state of War at that time. And much of what they know was written by English writer’s with a bias.
Kind of like reading a History of the U.S. written by Soviet’s during the cold war.
We have capital punishment today for the taking of a life.
A heritic could cause people to lose the souls.
Ask them if someone deceived them,causing the loss of salvation if that person should be executed.


#16

Henry Kamen has a good book on the Spanish inquisition. Not as bad as some say it was


#17

When you think about the Inquisition, ask yourself this:

Why in the WORLD do we CLEARLY understand, grasp intuitively, why a martyr would rather die than betray the faith by recanting…

yet we recoil in HORROR at the thought that otherwise good and decent church officials thought it just to punish someone who betrayed the faith?

In other words, once you accept that matters of faith are LIFE OR DEATH questions, is it REALLY so hard to understand how the Inquisition could occur?

From another angle: most enlightened liberals today understand the events of Harper’s Ferry as a perfectly understandable progression of the effects of slavery in the mid-1800s. Perhaps it is the case that modern liberals have empathy for John Brown. In contrast, modern Protestants do not share empathy for the Catholic Church, therefore they feign horror and disgust at the Inquisition.


#18

I find it extremely interesting how often Protestants and others bring up the Crusades, the Albigensians, Hus, the Inquisition and some bad Popes of around those times when they have objections about the Church.

I know that a lot of the things that have been written are extremely biased. And good apologists have the correct answers. I don’t.

But I wonder if directly countering their arguments is the best method to use as a counter-attack. It becomes “my source” v. “your source.”

A more direct approach might be just to acknowledge that mistakes were made, like in all wars and in all governments.

And then point out that it’s been hundreds of years since those events took place and ask them if their life is driven by ancient events?

And then when they point to other, more recent events, because they surely will have some at the ready, try switching the subject and point out the way we treated the American Indians and Black Slaves in the 19th century and before (and currently, too) and ask them if they are ashamed of being an American.

(I apologize to those who aren’t US residents for personalizing this; you might think of events in your country’s history that weren’t exactly admirable).

Point out that those were different times and things like that are not being done, for the most part, these days. The Church no longer has the Holy Roman Empire and a slew of State Churches to implement its wishes. The Sacraments, the Catechism, Grace and Moral Suasion are the only weapons which the Church has in this modern Spanish Inquisition. *. :stuck_out_tongue:

And acknowledge that bad things will happen in the future because Human Beings, including Catholic Human Beings, are imperfect, fallen, creatures.

Then switch the subject to how much good has been done by the Church. Then invite them to come to Mass with you so they can see for theirself.*


#19

[quote=gomer tree]I will take any trusted work, but I would also like to include something that is perhaps a balanced view from a “non-Church” source, if available. I suspect that if I simply list a bunch of Orthodox Catholic apologetical authors, it will be less credible to him, as he has no particular love for the Church (at least not yet… we’re working on it :wink: ).

[/quote]

So the people here suggest: Hilair Belloc, Triumph and TAN books…

geesh.

Belloc’s book on the Crusades (The World’s Debate) is not scholarship. I own it and have read it, I cannot recall a single footnote.

Crocker’s book Triumph is a brief and popular history of the Church, hardly scholarly and not even on topic.

TAN books are a catholic embarrasment. They are the Jack Chick of Catholic publishers.

These books will only convince the already convinced.

For scholarly authors on the subject, in no particular order try:

Walter Ullmann
Bernard Hamilton
R.W. Southern
Thomas Madden
M-D Chenu
Fr. Shannon has a book on the Inquisition which is very light
Benzion Netanyahu

Look for books published by University presses, not apologetic presses.

Adam


#20

try www.cathinsight.com. they have an article about it.:blessyou:


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