Nestorianism and Protestants who deny that Mary is the Mother of God


#1

I could never grasp this as to why **some Protestants **who just refuse to acknowledge Mary as the Mother of God is guilty of an ancient heresy of Nectorianism.

Let me make this clear what Mother of God does not imply.

  1. That Mary came before God.

  2. That Mary is the Mother of the whole Trinity (except the Son).

This was the Theotokos or Mother of God does say.

  1. Mary gave birth to Word incarnate, Jesus Christ. Since Jesus’ own flesh comes from his own Mother.

  2. Mary is the Mother of God in a sense that Jesus is both God and Man. Mary being the Mother of Jesus makes her the Mother of God, the Son, Second Person of the Trinity.

Any Protestant deny the Mary as the Mother of God only lessen the divine nature of Jesus Christ himself. The title only invokes Jesus Christ because the Person of Christ is defined here.

They are very much becoming Neo-Nestorianism whether they like it or not. In plain English, they are heretics who deny Jesus’ divinity.


#2

Denial of Marys perpetual virginity and other things have been going on since the gnostics…St. Augustine had a specific term for them(read my sig)

Lotsa protestants when talking about Idols put a picture of Mary next to the Mythological statues during their lectures… How insulting to Christ and Mary is this??

The thing that I totally love is the miracle that happened at Fatima… That totally shows that we have been right the whole time :slight_smile: … and Lourdes… and Guaduloupe…and Medjedore… :slight_smile:

There is evidence from within the hadith that Muhammad had contact with Nestorian Christians[citation needed]. Particularly of interest are the similarities between Muslim raka’ah, or ritual prayer, and the genuflections performed by Nestorians during Lent.

Its funny because when talk about Miracles attibuted to Mary protestants tend to get very defensive and nervous… I always wondered why miracles never happened in protestant churches…


#3

That is a good term to use! :thumbsup:
It is not correct to call them Nestorian because they (for the greater part) affirm the truth of the hypostatic union. They are uncomfortable with the term “Mother of God” but dont deny the two natures of Jesus.

:rotfl:
Either you cut and pasted from Wiki…or else you are one heck of an amazing comedian!


#4

Mannyfit> While I don’t contest that Mary was indeed the earthly (physical) mother of Jesus, there’s no real reason that it’s important to believe this. It doesn’t change his divinity, his character, his knowledge, or his authority, nor his ability to save us from damnation.

On a related note – with the “immaculate conception” and supposed perpetual virginity of Mary – a change in the status of either of these items also doesn’t affect who Jesus was or what he did.

Thus, why do so many Roman Catholics worry that protestants won’t be properly devoted to Mary? Marian devotion/adoration/worship/whatever-you-call-it (I know…what it actually is is hotly debated) is simply a waste of time. If I’m going to spend time talking to Mary, when I could spend the time talking to Jesus…that’d be just silly. I also know that, no matter what someone decides about Mary’s status, Jesus is still the better one to be talking to.

Also – I don’t know of that many who deny that Mary is the mother of Christ, unless they also doubt the divinity of Christ. But that clearly doesn’t qualify as protestant at all. What many protestants do deny is that Mary was anything other than an ordinary, Godly woman, who God chose to use in an extraordinary capacity as Jesus’ mother. But as I said – I don’t consider these things to be of any major importance, unless for some reason someone lets them interfere with worship of God, or with one becoming closer to him. Now, admittedly, I feel that much of the “Marian devotion” that happens today does precisely that – interferes, but that’s a topic for another thread.


#5

It does. Immaculate Conception and the Pertual Virginity does point to Jesus Christ. There are some things I like to point how.

In Biblical typology, in the Old Testament, the Ark of the Covenant is venerated by the Jews. The Ark contain the staff of Aaron, Manna, and Ten Commandments, the Word of God; whichs God’s own finger wrote to Moses. In the NT, Mary is a type of Ark. She carried Bread of Life, High Priest, and Word made flesh Jesus Christ.

In order to bring a more perfect union with God and man. The prophets prophecy that a virgin shall give birth to a male child, and he shall be called Emmanuel, God is with us. In order to do so, the mother of Jesus must be pure. For whatever God tough becomes sacred or Holy. Jesus’ flesh himself is from Mary. If Mary had sin, it would mean Satan conquer Mary by having her sin. She never sinned. She is always the faithful “handmaid of the Lord.” The Bible calls Mary, Blessed, and she is Full of Grace.

Thus, why do so many Roman Catholics worry that protestants won’t be properly devoted to Mary? Marian devotion/adoration/worship/whatever-you-call-it (I know…what it actually is is hotly debated) is simply a waste of time. If I’m going to spend time talking to Mary, when I could spend the time talking to Jesus…that’d be just silly. I also know that, no matter what someone decides about Mary’s status, Jesus is still the better one to be talking to.

It’s just not Roman Catholics, my friend. Eastern Orthodox venerate and affirm that Mary is the Mother of God. Protestants are the only one who have no honoring of the Blessed Mother. I do know some Protestants now seeem to acknowledge that now.

Also – I don’t know of that many who deny that Mary is the mother of Christ, unless they also doubt the divinity of Christ. But that clearly doesn’t qualify as protestant at all. What many protestants do deny is that Mary was anything other than an ordinary, Godly woman, who God chose to use in an extraordinary capacity as Jesus’ mother. But as I said – I don’t consider these things to be of any major importance, unless for some reason someone lets them interfere with worship of God, or with one becoming closer to him. Now, admittedly, I feel that much of the “Marian devotion” that happens today does precisely that – interferes, but that’s a topic for another thread.

Denying that Mary is the Mother of God is heretical. If you research on the heresy of Nestorianism, you would know that.

If you didn’t know. Let me me educate you what Nestorianism. Nestorianism is named after the Bishop Nestorius, the Patriarch of Constantinople. He taught that Jesus is two distinct persons, and he denied that Mary is the Mother of God. In response the Council of Ephesus in 431 AD condemned this heresy and affirm the belief that Mary is the Mother of God, the Theotokos.

Many of the Marian devotion is never without Christ. When we pray ask Mary to pray for us, we pray together in unison. It is no than you praying with me, or asking you to pray for me.

I also like to make it clear, that we do not worship Mary the same way we worship God. We venerate her and honor her. Don’t assume you think you know what we believe because for one, you aren’t Catholic. How do you suppose to know what we believe when you don’t believe what we believe?


#6

I like to cite some of the sayings that was said in the Council of Ephesus.

If anyone shall divide between two persons or subsistences those expressions (φωνάς ) which are contained in the Evangelical and Apostolical writings, or which have been said concerning Christ by the Saints, or by himself, and shall apply some to him as to a man separate from the Word of God, and shall apply others to the only Word of God the Father, on the ground that they are fit to be applied to God: let him be anathema.

If anyone shall after the [hypostatic] union divide the hypostases in the one Christ, joining them by that connection alone, which happens according to worthiness, or even authority and power, and not rather by a coming together (συνόδῳ ), which is made by natural union (ἕνωσιν φυσικὴν ): let him be anathema.

And since the holy Virgin brought forth corporally God made one with flesh according to nature, for this reason we also call her Mother of God, not as if the nature of the Word had the beginning of its existence from the flesh.

For “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word was with God,” and he is the Maker of the ages, coeternal with the Father, and Creator of all; but, as we have already said, since he united to himself hypostatically human nature from her womb, also he subjected himself to birth as man, not as needing necessarily in his own nature birth in time and in these last times of the world, but in order that he might bless the beginning of our existence, and that that which sent the earthly bodies of our whole race to death, might lose its power for the future by his being born of a woman in the flesh. And this: “In sorrow you shall bring forth children,” being removed through him, he showed the truth of that spoken by the prophet, “Strong death swallowed them up, and again God has wiped away every tear from off all faces.” For this cause also we say that he attended, having been called, and also blessed, the marriage in Cana of Galilee, with his holy Apostles in accordance with the economy. We have been taught to hold these things by the holy Apostles and Evangelists, and all the God-inspired Scriptures, and in the true confessions of the blessed Fathers.

To all these your reverence also should agree, and give heed, without any guile. And what it is necessary your reverence should anathematize we have subjoined to our epistle.

newadvent.org/fathers/3810.htm


#7

I am uncomfortable with Mother of God because it is an anthropomorphism. Mother bears human concepts that just can’t apply to God. I am much more comfortable with the translation of Theokotis as God-bearer since it doesn’t have the same implications. I think Augustine reflects my opinion.

  1. Now then, if it seem good, brethren, those men being repulsed, and ever wandering in their own blindness, unless in humility they be healed, let us inquire why our Lord answered His mother in such a manner. He was in an extraordinary manner begotten of the Father without a mother, born of a mother without a father; without a mother He was God, without a father He was man; without a mother before all time, without a father in the end of times.
  2. Why, then, said the Son to the mother, “Woman, what have I to do with you? mine hour is not yet come?” Our Lord Jesus Christ was both God and man. According as He was God, He had not a mother; according as He was man, He had. She was the mother, then, of His flesh, of His humanity, of the weakness which for our sakes He took upon Him. But the miracle which He was about to do, He was about to do according to His divine nature, not according to His weakness; according to that wherein He was God not according to that wherein He was born weak.-Augustine (Tracates on John, Tracate 8 John 2:1-4, paragraphes 8-9)

newadvent.org/fathers/1701008.htm

This would have been written before the Council of Ephesus though.


#8

Explain what is anthropomorphism. The Council of Ephesus affirms the title Mother of God is in response to Nestorianism, it only affirm that Jesus is both True God-and True Man. The hypostatic union between his human nature and divine nature.

He is True Man because from the flesh of Mary, he became Man.

He is True God because he is the Word, the Word is God, in the beginning was the Word, and the This Word became Flesh. Who is the Mother of this Word? Jesus. Who is Jesus? He is God. Who is the Mother of Jesus. Mary.

Therefore, Mary is the Mother of God.

This is the belief that majority of Christians believe in and some Protestants also affirmed. Unfortunately the majority of Evangelical Protestants do affirm Mother of God, like you do. We are not suppose to understand. We have to believe in it because the Christian Church Council affirm Mary is the Mother of God.


#9

Anthropomorphism is applying human characteristics and concepts to someone to non-humans or things. While Jesus is God and man, God also includes the Father and Holy Spirit and neither of these is human. I understand that the name Mother of God applies to Mary as mother of Jesus, but while God is 3 persons, He is also one God. In no way can Mary be called the mother of the Father or Holy Spirit. That is why I prefer God-bearer which I understand is actually a more accurate translation of the Greek, Theokotis.


#10

Your reasoning for rejecting the title Mother of God is borderline Nestorianism. While granting Mary the title Mother of God does not mean that she is the Mother of the Trinity, nor does it mean Mother of the Father, or of the Holy Spirit.
The Greek word is actually Theotokos.


#11

I do not think that it is anywhere near to Nestorianism. I recognize Christ as both truly God and truly man. Two natures in one person.

On another note my understanding is that there has been recognition by Rome that Nestorius was misunderstood and agreement reached with the Assyrian Church.


#12

If he accepts the Greek term Theotokos, I don’t think anyone can argue that he’s anywhere close to Nestorianism. Nestorius rejected Theotokos, claiming that Mary was only Christotokos, the mother of the man Jesus Christ (who was later “annointed” and became God).

I can’t see anything wrong with his belief if he believes that Mary is the Theotokos but is uncomfortable with the translation “Mother of God” because it can be misinterpreted, providing he is willing to admit that the term “Mother of God” can has a non-heretical meaning and can be used validly, even if it is open to misinterpretation. I wouldn’t be surprised if there are a great many Protestants who feel the same way.

Jeremy


#13

I think you may be confusing the Nestorians with the Monophysite Oriental Orthodox, with whom the Church has reached such an agreement.

The Assyrian Church of the East, as far as I know, is still condemned for its …

Actually, I’m wrong :slight_smile: I left the previous text to show my thought process, but here’s the common Christological declaration made by the Assyrian Church of the East and the Catholic Church:

Do note that this is a not necessarily a declaration that Nestorius was “misunderstood,” but merely a declaration that, at the present time, the Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East can confirm the same Christological dogmas.

cired.org/cat/03_Common_Christological_Dec.pdf

Jeremy


#14

How could Mary be the Mother of God? MATTHEW PINTO The title “Mother of God” is offensive to some Protestant Christians because they believe that this title raises Mary to an inappropriate, even idolatrous, level — the level of God Himself. There is also genuine confusion on the part of others — including Catholics — about how a finite creature (Mary) could be the “mother” of an eternal being. “Wouldn’t Mary have had to exist before God in order to be His mother?”, they reason.
Referring to Mary as “Mother of God,” however, does not imply that she existed from all eternity (like God) or that she is the source of Jesus’ divine nature. Mary was and is a human being. She is the Mother of God because she gave birth to the God-Man, Jesus, “the Word made flesh” (John 1). :slight_smile: [FONT=Verdana][size=1]May the Sacred Heart of Jesus be Adored, Glorified, Loved & Preserved throughout the world, now & forever. Sacred Heart of Jesus, please pray for me. Saint Jude, Worker of Miracles, please pray for me. Saint Jude, Helper of the Hopeless, please pray for me. Amen:) [FONT=Arial Black]to manny 75 like your seal photo;) god blessed the animals:) [/FONT]
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#15

[quote=mayra hart] to manny 75 like your seal photo;) god blessed the animals:)
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It’s a baby harp seal. I think baby seals are to cute. It reminds me how God would create such beautiful creature. It’s a pity they are hunt down in Canada. Humanity has been really a bad stewart or caretaker of this planet. I am hopeful that in the end, God will make all things new. He may even bring back extinct animals in the last days.

Harp seals aren’t extinct yet… but they are endanger due to global warming and being hunted down every March-April time frame.

Um, to go back on topic, I think Protestants need to understand the title Mother of God does not elevate Mary. Rather it invokes that Jesus is God.


#16

to mannyfit 75. i know about the seal situation. iam a beginner apologetic but also a animal lover. an although they said animals don’t go to heaven i hope God let them be part of heaven too.they might not have soul but is amazing how much you get to know them when you look at them at the eye. an now going back to business " For by the singular gift of Him who is our Lord and God, and withal, her own son, she is to be confessed most truly and most blessedly–The mother of God ‘Theotocos,’ but not in the sense in which it is imagined by a certain impious heresy which maintains, that she is to be called the Mother of God for no other reason than because she gave birth to that man who afterwards became God, just as we speak of a woman as the mother of a priest, or the mother of a bishop, meaning that she was such, not by giving birth to one already a priest or a bishop, but by giving birth to one who afterwards became a priest or a bishop. Not thus, I say, was the holy Mary ‘Theotocos,’ the mother of God, but rather, as was said before, because in her sacred womb was wrought that most sacred mystery whereby, on account of the singular and unique unity of Person, as the Word in flesh is flesh, so Man in God is God." Vincent of Lerins, Commonitory for the Antiquity and Universality of the Catholic Faith, 15 (A.D. 434). :slight_smile: O blessed Saint of God, from your throne among the hosts of heaven present our petitions before our faithful Lord. May your prayers on our behalf be heard and may God grant us the grace to lead good and faithful lives. Amen.

Saint Francis of Assisi,
Pray for us. Amen.:slight_smile:


#17

I have a question, and though it may sound smart-alecky, it’s actually not. I accept the term Mother of God, for the reasons argued for here. But here’s the question: Would the same reasons apply to other relatives? Would Elizabeth be the Aunt of God, or John the Baptist be the Cousin of God?


#18

Inasmuch as Jesus is God, you could call them these things. In the same way as the Apostle James was the Brother of the Lord.

But the titles we give to Elizabeth and John don’t really force us to stop and reflect on Christ’s own nature in the same way that calling Mary Mother of God does.


#19

wiki :slight_smile:


#20

Of course it does. Jesus Christ had two natured completely and perfectly combined into one person. The person Jesus Christ did not have two competing natures but two completely cooperating natures. Hence the one person Jesus Christ, Son of God and Son of Man, was the son of Mary. Hence Mary is properly the Theotokos.

If this is not true we could never trust the work of Christ for our salvation.

CDL


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