What are your thoughts on this “new” discovery? Does it change your opinion on anything? Also, what questions does it leave open still?
Well, looking this up, I’d first like to bring to everyone’s
attention a rather humble comment (of somebody else):As a believing Mormon, active in his faith, let me state clearly: THIS HAS
**NOTHING **TO DO WITH THE BOOK OF MORMON.THE MIGRATION BE-
ING DESCRIBED HERE IS TOO EARLY. DEAR MORMONS AND NON–
MORMONS TAKE YOUR BOOK OF MORMON HISTORICITY DEBATE
SOMEWHERE ELSE. THERE IS NOTHING TO SEE HERE.
So with that, very interesting article,
not faith crushing at all, Creationists
still caught in the mud.
Your above comment about the timing is correct. But it certainly does call into question hundreds of posts made by you and others on this forum to “conclusively” reject the Book of Mormon. For instance this gem you wrote a couple of months ago:
The Book of Mormon claims that the Native Americans originally came from Israel. It is COMPLETELY reasonable to conclude that Native Americans then have Semetic DNA. There’s none. forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=11265437&postcount=61
Apparently, not so complete any more. Or this one from Stephen168:
DNA has proven Joseph Smith to have lied about what he said was true about the Book of Mormon. (forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=11263131&postcount=50)
I guess DNA evidence may not prove it any more. Or this one from StevenVH:
You say that the BoM has not been proven to be a 19th century work of fiction. Fine. If we wish to disregard the fact that the DNA evidence completely contradicts the Mormon position… (forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=10423870&postcount=213)
Again, not so complete. Or this one from Porknpie:
DNA science has shown the American Indians to be from Asia, not the Land of Jerusalem. …There is no science supporting the BoM. Everything from BYU is speculation built on a fable, a piece of fiction. Speculation and opinion is not science.
Or this one from kimg901:
No evidence what so ever exsists that they were here before the spaniards. DNA has proven joe smith wrong.forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=10385329&postcount=80
I could go on, but will any of you admit that you were wrong in stating completely, conclusively that DNA evidence proved Joseph wrong? You may now provide your apologies…
I will gladly apologize IF you can show me exactly where Zerehemla or Bountiful is…and/or if you excavate Cumorah and show me the evidence of the thousands and thousands who died there.
Oh, and nothing in this article helps prove Mormonism. In fact, it even more disproves it.
But, again, I will gladly apologize IF you can show me exactly where Zerehemla or Bountiful is…and/or if you excavate Cumorah and show me the evidence of the thousands and thousands who died there.
Time will tell regarding archeological evidence but we are here talking about DNA. So I guess I’ll say no apology from TexanKnight?
Not true. I said I would apologize when you found me Zerehemla and Bountiful.
As for archeology, Mormons have been trying and trying to find that evidence…and many have tried and left the LDS Church because of the efforts and lack of evidence.
But I will make it easy for you…though we do not know where Zerehmla and Bountiful are, we DO know where Cumorah is…excavate it. I dare ya. I double-dog dare ya…
oh, and the DNA stuff here does not help you, either.
Now, about Cumorah…
I think it is very interesting and I’m sorry to see this thread being hijacked by a debate about Mormons. In a related thought, there have been some DNA testing on the eastern Native tribes which show some linkages to Western Europe than thought before. I think Nat Geo has done some articles about that. Of course, there is some thoughts that the first Europeans to come to the New World were Irish Monks under St. Brendan, even before the Vikings. I think there were a number of migrations either over a land bridge via Alaska or even by boat hopping from Island to Island via the northern Atlantic.
Apologies for what exactly? How do these new findings prove that any of these posts are wrong? Here are my comments on your quoting of the other posts.
- The article says nothing about Semitic DNA. Only west Eurasian.
- The new evidence doesn’t show that Joseph Smith told the truth.
- The DNA evidence still shows that Joseph Smith was wrong and that the migrations happened before 22,000 BC, not 600 BC.
- There is still no science supporting the Book of Mormon. This new evidence does nothing the support the BOM. The article indicates that 70% of the DNA is east Eurasian and the other 30% is west Eurasian. Still mostly east Eurasian.
- DNA evidence still shows that Joseph Smith is wrong. Still no DNA evidence of Semites before the Spaniards.
There is nothing to apologize for. Frankly, I’m not surprised by these findings at all. There have long been archaeological findings that contradicted the Bering straight migration only theories. I’m glad that scientists are finally opening their minds to migrations coming from Europe.
I always wondered when I visited the Hill Cumorah as a teen why the stone box that Joseph supposedly found the gold plates wasn’t there. Now it all makes sense. Because there never was a stone box or gold plates! The LDS church has the legal rights and financial ability to excavate the Hill Cumorah. Why don’t they?
The article also linked to another article about the migration of man. How we all started in Africa and migrated north and east from there. It seems that the new information is that there was a migration to North America 24,000 years ago from Siberia which included people who had come from western Asia.
The article as linked to another article about the link between Asia (central Siberia) languages and North American Indian languages. This new information might prove this link to be much older than originally thought.
To answer your question, no this new information does change my opinion on anything because I’ve always believe that man came from Africa and migrated out from there. I think we are still discovering the timing of this migration.
For sure, I don’t believe the Columbus expedition was here first either. I do think we need to stop being confined by that thinking. I’m confident we could scratch that off the list.
The recent news item is hardly groundbreaking or surprising. Here’s a grouping of related published science, going back as far as 1996:
Steve Olson, Mapping Human History: Discovering the Past Through Our Genes, [Boston: Houghton Mifflin Co. 2002], p. 114. (Highlight: Non-Mormon scientists have found Semitic DNA among Native Americans.)
Virginia Morrell, “Genes May Link Ancient Eurasians, Native Americans,” Science, 280:520 [April 24, 1998 and April 11, 2004] (Highlight: Non-Mormon scientists have found genetic links between Native Americans and Middle Easterners.)
Carvajal-Carmona, L.G., et.al.“Strong Amerind/White Sex Bias and a Possible Sephardic Contribution among the Founders of a Population in Northwest Colombia,” American Journal of Human Genetics, 67  1287-1295 [Nov.2000]. (Highlight: Non-Mormon scientists have found the presence of several indicators of Jewish ancestry among Antiquian populations of Colombia.)
M.F. Hammer, et.al., “Jewish and Middle Eastern Non-Jewish Populations Share a Common Pool of Y-Chromosome Biallelic Haplotypes,” Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences USA, 97:6769- 74 [June 6, 2000]. and T.M. Karafet, et.al., “Ancestral Asian Source(s) of New World Y-Chromosome Founder Haplotypes,” American Journal of Human Genetics, 64:817-831 [March 1999]. (Highlight: Non-Mormon scientists have found Haplogroup 1c and 4 among Jews and among the Cheyenne and Zapotec tribe of America.)
Brown, M.D. et. al., “mt DNA Haplogroup X: An Ancient Link Between Europe/Western Asia and North America?” American Journal of Human Genetics, 63 : 1852-1861 (Dec.1998); also P. Forster, R. Hardin, A. Torroni, and H.J Bandelt, "Origin and Evolution of Native American mt DNA Variation: a Reappraisal, "American Journal of Human Genetics, 59: 935-954 ; also R.L Parr, S.W. Carlyle, and D.H. O’Rourke, “Ancient DNA Analysis of Fremont Amerindians of the Great Salt Lake Wetlands,” American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 99:507-518 . (Highlight: Non-Mormon scientists have found DNA Haplogroup X, sometimes referred to as Haplotype N, in the Middle East and among the Fremont Indians.)
James L. Guthrie, “Human Lymphocyte Antigens: Apparent Afro-Asiatic, Southern Asian, and European HLAs in Indigenous American Population,” Pre-Columbiana, Vol.2, Nos.2 and 3, Dec. 2000/June 2001, pp.90-163. (Highlight: Non-Mormon scientists have found significant evidence of Middle Eastern genes entering America before Columbus by analyzing human lymphocyte antigens. They found that the A1 antigen was found in Palestine and in the Andes. They found that the B14 allele was carried from the Near East to the Eastern Maya, the Nahua, and the Cherokee populations. They found the B*21 allele in frequencies greater than 15% in Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Palestine as well as in Uto-Aztecan populations as a Central Amerind composite.)
I think Janderich’s post is valid. No, there isn’t any DNA proof for Book of Mormon claims. All those big words above, that make all our eyes glaze over, don’t prove the BoM true. But they do pretty much kill statements like “DNA has proven Joseph Smith to have lied”, or “the DNA evidence completely contradicts the Mormon position”, or “DNA has proven joe smith wrong”. Defending false statements isn’t a good strategy.
DNA science is very picky and specific in what it proves and disproves. Neither side of the mormon debate can make a DNA science banner and march to it’s drumbeat - because it really says very little about the debate either way. And the world is divided into two groups of people - those who understand that fact, and those who don’t.
Texan’s tactics on this thread are evidence that he understands. Critics of my faith would be well advised to follow his lead, and whenever a Mormons says “DNA”, change the subject to archaeology or geography.
I don’t think it calls into question anything I’ve said. DNA has proven Joseph Smith to have lied about what he said was true about the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith claimed the Book of Mormon was about the source of the American Indian and that source was the near east, 4000 years ago.
Scientist know that man started in Africa and migrated east, so at some point in time they traveled through western Asia on their way to North America. The question isn’t if there is European DNA in a group’s genome, but when did it get there. This article claims a migration, 24,000 years ago, came from Siberia and about a third of the genome of this group came from western Asia. This does not show that the American Indians came from the near east 4000 years ago, and are Jews, like Joseph Smith claimed.
There is also a link between the language of Siberia and North American Indians but no link has been made between reformed Egyptian and any other language.
The Mormon Church’s position is very fluid about what it means to say the Book of Mormon is true. Joseph Smith’s position is fixed and DNA has shown it to be false. To say he lied would claim he knew his claim was false when he made it. I think he did.
lol…DNA is a settled issue as regards to proving the LDS fake.
I prefer archaeology…not afraid of DNA…just never cared for it. But, the fact y’all won;t excavate cumorah is WONDERFUL! Because not only does it prove the LDS Church wrong, it proves THE LEADERS KNOW IT IS FALSE!
that is just too delicious not to bring up as often as I can
A, No apology is necessary based on the fact that statements were based on evidence available at the time.
B. Just like your prophets, previous comments don’t matter, only current one.
LDS INC doesnt have the spine for it…
exactly. Been saying that for years