New Fatima Documentary to Air, Critical of Vatican

Oh boy, here we go:

Vatican Ignores Peace Plan, Says Catholic Documentary

Fr Gruner …AGAIN. I stopped even reading his stuff.

And to air it on PAX??? At least in my area, PAX is mostly tele-evangilists and Touched by an Angel re-runs (and that doctor show with Billy Rae Cyrus in it).

The evangelicals could have a hey day with this one.

I guess the old adage is true, as far as Evangelical Protestants are concerned: “The enemy of your enemy is your friend.”

Is it me, or does this Protestant/Traditionalist joint-effort seem a bit reminiscent of that dreaded “heretical Ecumenism” which Rad-Trads supposedly abhor?

:rolleyes:

[quote=DominvsVobiscvm]Oh boy, here we go:

Vatican Ignores Peace Plan, Says Catholic Documentary
[/quote]

Sr. Lucia says that the consecration of Russia was accepted. Why can’t these people accept what the seer says? Do they know more about her apparition than she does?

Sr. Lucia says that the consecration of Russia was accepted. Why can’t these people accept what the seer says? Do they know more about her apparition than she does?

Their main argument, so far as I understand, is that Sister Lucia several times stated that the “Consecration” was invalid, and only later under pressure said it was.

And there actually seems to be some truth to this. At least, I’ve never seen an orthodox Catholic reply to these accusations, and the documentation produced in support of them.

[quote=DominvsVobiscvm]Their main argument, so far as I understand, is that Sister Lucia several times stated that the “Consecration” was invalid, and only later under pressure said it was.

And there actually seems to be some truth to this. At least, I’ve never seen an orthodox Catholic reply to these accusations, and the documentation produced in support of them.
[/quote]

There was more than one attempt to comply with the act of consecration. Only the last attempt was accepted. The times Sr. Lucia said the act was invalid are not the same as the time she said it was valid.

What I dont understand is this. Sr. Lucia is like 97 years old now. Why don’t they allow her to have an interview on t.v. so we can hear it from her own mouth and close this chapter once and for all. That’s what makes this thing look so sketchy. She is hardly ever allowed to talk to the public and it is so tough to interview her.

It seems that even after the 1984 Consecration Sister Lucia denied that Our Lady’s request was ever fulfilled:

A Real Interview

. . . Then, in September of 1985, an account of an interview with her appeared in Sol de Fatima magazine, published by friends of the Spanish Blue Army. It quoted Sr. Lucia affirming once again that yet another consecration of the world, performed in 1984 in Rome, still did not satisfy Our Lady’s request. The text of the consecration made no mention of Russia, and none of the thousands of other bishops of the world were commanded to participate.

A Cousin Speaks

A year later, one of the few family members permitted to visit Sr. Lucia spoke out. Maria do Fetal, a cousin, publicly stated after a visit that Sr. Lucia had said the consecration still had not been done. Her statement gave a momentary voice to her cloistered cousin, who was still not permitted to speak for herself.

Quick Confirmation

In June of 1987, Sr. Lucia made a rare excursion outside her convent to vote in a general election. In a brief exchange with a journalist, Enrico Romero, Sr. Lucia confirmed once again that the consecration of Russia had not been done.

Instructions to Contradict

Two years later, in the summer of 1989, Sr. Lucia received a surprising instruction from an anonymous official at the Vatican. The instruction directed that Sr. Lucia and her fellow religious at the convent must now say that the consecration performed in March of 1984 satisfied the request of Our Lady of Fatima. This extraordinary order to flatly contradict herself was revealed by Father Messias Coelho, a longtime friend and occasional visitor of Sr. Lucia. In evident obedience to the same instruction, Sr. Lucia’s cousin Maria do Fetal suddenly reversed herself, and quoted Sr. Lucia as saying the consecration had been done.

I don’t know what to make of all this. Blessed John XXIII was supposed to reveal the secret publicly in 1960, as per Our Lady’s orders. He refused to do so. Why is it so hard to believe that John Paul II is also disobeying Our Lady?

[quote=DominvsVobiscvm]It seems that even after the 1984 Consecration Sister Lucia denied that Our Lady’s request was ever fulfilled. I don’t know what to make of all this. Blessed John XXIII was supposed to reveal the secret publicly in 1960, as per Our Lady’s orders. He refused to do so. Why is it so hard to believe that John Paul II is also disobeying Our Lady?
[/quote]

not true as has been refuted many times, but people who place their faith in private revelation and disdain the magesterial teaching authority of the Church refuse to accept it.

Were you there in 1917? do you know what “Our Lady’s Orders” were? the pope does not “take orders” from Our Lady, and Our Lady is not interested in “giving orders” to the Pope. She is queen of heaven and of the Church, by virtue of her motherhood of the head of the Church, Jesus Christ, whose representative on earth is the Pope. the Church declared the original Fatima message permissible for belief and veneration of Our Lady of Fatima permissible under that title.

Pronouncements, curses, deprecations, defiance and detraction issued against the Pope by certain adherents of this cultus enjoy no such approval and lead to schism and even outright heresy. Which is precisely why the Church is so reluctanct to give credence to private revelation.

Defiance of the Pope on this issue is as scandalous and sinful as defiance on issues such as abortion, women priests, adherence to liturgical norms and other issues of far graver importance. Frances Kissling move over, you’ve got company.

The Consecration of Russia was done entirely and whole on March 25th 1984, for me personally the subject is closed.
For others it won’t matter what the Church Bishops, Priests, Lucia or anyone else says, sensationalism is the order of the day !!!
unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/FATHER%20NICHOLAS%20GRUNER.html

                                                Stephen.

It doesn’t really matter if the consecration was done or not. This is a private revelation and has no bearing on the Catholic Faith.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.

Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations”.

So a faithful Catholic does not even have to believe in the apparition/message of Fatima to be a good, faithful Catholic.

Just another non-issue to cloud the minds.

[quote=Des]She is hardly ever allowed to talk to the public and it is so tough to interview her.
[/quote]

She is a cloistered nun. They don’t do “public” anything. She wrote a book, under obedience. She has been given permission by her religious superiors to give a few interviews. That’s an awful lot of talking in public for a cloistered nun. At her age, I think she deserves to fulfill the rest of her mission on this Earth in peace.

Having received three sacraments in Our Lady of Fatima RCC, I wonder how much that speaks toward an endorsement or recognition of this Revelation, which technically, by definition is a General Revelation. Or maybe the Holy See. IHS Darylhttp://www.fatima.org/news/newsviews/”images/spacer.gif”At Fatima, on May 13, 2000, referring to Jacinta and Francisco, the seers of Fatima, Pope John Paul II said, “According to the Divine plan, ‘a woman clothed with the sun’ (Rev. 12:1) came down from Heaven to this earth to visit the privileged children of the Father.”

[quote=Calbreese]Having received three sacraments in Our Lady of Fatima RCC, I wonder how much that speaks toward an endorsement or recognition of this Revelation, which technically, by definition is a General Revelation. Or maybe the Holy See. IHS Darylhttp://www.fatima.org/news/newsviews/Óimages/spacer.gifÓAt Fatima, on May 13, 2000, referring to Jacinta and Francisco, the seers of Fatima, Pope John Paul II said, ÒAccording to the Divine plan, Ôa woman clothed with the sunÕ (Rev. 12:1) came down from Heaven to this earth to visit the privileged children of the Father.Ó
[/quote]

Fatima, as all apparitions, is a private revelation.

I looked in the Catechism and there is nothing regarding “general” revelations.

Fatima is not part of the Deposit of Faith.

Just because we recognize the Blessed Virgin under the title of Our Lady of Fatima does not require any belief in the message/apparitions of Fatima.

A consecration is simply a prayer. A prayer cannot be invalid as if it were a Holy Sacrament. With such a prayer, any grace bestowed by God comes *ex opere operantis. *It is not like a Holy Sacrament, which requires valid form, matter, and intent for the grace to be bestowed *ex opere operato. *So the whole argument of validity is absurd.

Either the pope consecrated Russia or he did not. The pope said he did, and did so quite publically. Opinions regarding validity are irrelevant and make no theological sense.

peace be with you!

as to whoever posted about the anonymous Vatican official telling her to “change” her statements about the 1984 Consecration…I personally find it very hard to believe that someone like Lucia who would have willing gave her life as a testimony to the truth of the Fatima messages at the age of 10 would now just change her mind because some anonymous official told her too. Everyone was telling her too when she was 10. She was threatened with being boiled alive and willingly accepted to suffer death rather than lie. I don’t think someone could pressure her now to do just that regarding other statements. I don’t think that story is true based on what we know of Sr. Lucia.

If Russia was consecrated in the manner Our Lady requested over 20 years ago, where is the much vaunted ‘conversion’? If anything, things are getting worse. Abortion is still the usual means of birth prevention, Catholics are still restricted, Russia still has it’s armaments, and still interferes in the affairs of it’s neighbours (Ukraine, Belarus). It is patently obvious that Russia is not converted, there has not been a period of peace granted to the world, and Our Lady has not received the acknowledgement that God desires. Ergo, the consecration has not been done in the manner Our Lady requested.

If the Mother of God comes to earth and prophecys the time and place of a great miracle, perhaps the greatest public miracle since Our Lord’s time, and then performs the miracle for believers and unbelievers alike, then everyone, the Holy Father included, better take notice. The solemn requests of the Mother of God can not just be dismissed as a ‘private revelation’. Either it is reasonable to believe that the Fatima revelations are true (they don’t have to be De Fide to be true) or it isn’t. If it is reasonable to believe, as most of us seem to, then it equally reasonable to expect that Our Lady’s requests should be faithfully fulfilled. What are we saying otherwise? “Sorry Holy Mother, we don’t need your heavenly assistance thank you very much.” We should rejoice that the Church has been granted such a great favour, and we should be eager to follow the plan provided by Heaven for true peace in the world. How many of us unthinkingly live and act on ‘private revelations’ without so much as a quibble? All of us. Every single last one of us. The Rosary, the Divine Mercy, the Miraculous medal, the brown scapular, Lourdes water, St. Juan Diego’s Tilma, the fifteen prayers of St. Bridget, St. Anthony’s brief, the green scapular, the list is endless. Why suddenly decide that the same criterion doesn’t apply to Fatima? It reveals something very wrong in our modern, Catholic pysche concerning Fatima.

The Consecration of Russia (not the world, or humanity or anything else) MUST be done, publicly, solemnly, by the Holy father, in unison with all the bishops of the world, right now. Why wait?

[quote=ByzCath]Fatima, as all apparitions, is a private revelation.

I looked in the Catechism and there is nothing regarding “general” revelations.

Fatima is not part of the Deposit of Faith.

Just because we recognize the Blessed Virgin under the title of Our Lady of Fatima does not require any belief in the message/apparitions of Fatima.
[/quote]

I agree with David on this one, and always have. Private revelations, IMO, are meant to be just that ‘private’. (Just like the supposed number of Popes we are to have before Christ’s return). Satan can take many forms and even mimic holy images and quote Scripture. Satan is using ‘this particular revelation’ and pitting it against the Church and fueling the fire and support for the Protestants.

The Blessed Virgin Mary, the Theotokos, is supposed to LEAD us to Jesus Christ, not be equal or above Jesus Christ. The Blessed Virgin Mary is the ONLY human being given the graces TO BE the Mother of God, NOT God! :eek:

I just don’t understand why people want to put Mary higher than God when it comes to these private revelations? BVM is our heavenly Mother and helps us to pray to her son, Jesus. Yes, she has been given special graces to communicate to earth on behalf of her Son, but not to be final subject of the messages.

I pray to the Blessed Virgin Mary for help and guidance, so her may direct my prayers toward her Son. Yet, I don’t ask her to DO the request, then we’d be precisely doing what the Protestants ‘say’ we are doing…idol worshipping her!

Go with God!
Edwin

[quote=DominvsVobiscvm]Their main argument, so far as I understand, is that Sister Lucia several times stated that the “Consecration” was invalid, and only later under pressure said it was.

And there actually seems to be some truth to this. At least, I’ve never seen an orthodox Catholic reply to these accusations, and the documentation produced in support of them.
[/quote]

I agree!! UMMMMM, may be some masons WITHIN the vatican?? In any event, i cannot wait to see the documentary.:thumbsup:

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.