New / Rare apologetic explanations of OSAS, Mary, etc

I’ve been listening to Catholic Answers Live and reading up on apologetics for about a year now, and I’ve come across one interesting refutation for OSAS which I’ve made some elaboration on, and I’ve formulated a short explanation of the Saints’ ability to know the prayers coming from the entire Body of Christ. I’m looking for feedback first, but also for any other rare answers that you think should brought up more often than they are.

First, to the OSAS idea, this is a much longer rendition of something I recently read on this forum:

Here is a new question: What do you consider faith to be? Paul says in Hebrews 11:1 that faith “is the reality of things being hoped for, the proof of things not being seen.” When answering a question – let’s use a math question such as “2+2=?” for simplicity. Being grade school graduates, we would NOT say, “Of course, the answer is 4,” and then anticipate the true answer with hope of getting it right, because we know for sure it’s right. We would confidently be able to rebuke any person who says that the answer is anything other than 4. However, in the case of a 5-year-old who does not know how to perform simple math well yet, it would be understandable that he could come up with the answer “4,” or even “10,” and then hope that he got it right, because might not know for sure what the answer is. If that case when Paul spoke, then our personal salvation could not be included in “things hoped for,” since we would not hope for something of which we know we will get. There would be no virtue of hope for salvation in that case. However, we know that hope is the virtue that makes a Christian crave for the kingdom of God. Hope draws us towards greater friendship with Jesus to put our trust in his promises.“Let us hold fast to the confession of our hope without wavering, for He Who promised is faithful.” [Heb. 10:23] Hope is what helps us endure suffering, knowing that it is for our sanctification. If we being saved is a one-time event, then hope has no place in salvation. It’s not hope, it’s something else: longing. Longing is good, too. This would then alter the verse to “faith is the reality of things longed for,” which is also a true statement. However, hope would be contradictory, because being saved once and for all would mean that he knows he will go to Heaven.

Secondly, regarding praying to Saints:

People can often be convinced of the necessity of all parts of the Body of Christ, which would enable the Saints to pray for us here on Earth, but it’s often a difficult jump to believe that someone with such a widespread devotion as Mary could possibly hear everyone who makes prayer requests to her. They say that only God can possibly pay attention to so many people. However, could it be argued that the Devil (I KNOW, he’s much different than Mary, being a fallen angel and evil and all) also pays attention to a lot of people at once? It’s not a stretch for everyone to believe that, but it seems to go unmentioned. Does this make sense?

Thanks!

It makes PERFECT sense, and this is an apologetical approach that I have not seen before. It is absolutely, positively brilliant.

Protestants are perfectly content with the idea that Satan is immersed in MANY lives simultaneously. But they object that Saints have this ability. So they are saying that demons are more capable than Saints?

This is a NO BRAINER. And THIS is your first post??? WELCOME to CAF!!! I REALLY look forward to your further posts.

Well done on your post; I’m going to read it again when I’m a little quieter later.

It’s always fascinating to see new approaches to apologetics, and I agree that listening to CAL and reading is going to allow you to go deeper and deeper as your explore these questions, guided of course by the Holy Spirit.

There are so many facets to the faith and so many ways to explore and defend the Faith.

Good point.
The problem is, and I couldn’t see this years ago when I bought into this, that what I was putting my faith in was OSAS. Putting your faith in a concept instead of the Second Person of the Trinity. And lets not kid ourselves, it IS an enticing philosophy. We want safety, security, and the easiest way. Back then I would twist any Scripture to make OSAS true. That’s why many Catholics are disarmed immediately because they assume the person pushing OSAS is an expert on Scripture.
A combination of Scripture knowledge and psychological manipulation is why OSAS is hard to defeat.

David,

Thanks for the encouragement! I don’t consider myself too great an apologist yet, and the idea about saints came to me during prayer one day. I was shocked because I hadn’t heard it anywhere else, and even more shocked now, because it is so obvious.

One objection I could imagine someone saying is that angels are different than saints. Would Matthew 22:30 and Luke 20:36 be good verses for this, as they say those who share in the Resurrection will “be like the angels”? Or, is that way out of context since Jesus is talking about marriage?

JustaServant,

Thanks for that perspective. So there is real hope in the conceptual sense of OSAS salvation, but it’s in the wrong thing. Would someone be offended if told were they don’t have hope? I think it would have to be approached differently.

The best approach IMO is to dismantle the psychological rationale behind OSAS. THAT is at the heart of the philosophy, not Scripture.
Using Scripture can be a dead end when Catholics and Evangelicals get into a game of Bible ping pong. In order to dismantle that, you have to first dismantle Scripture Alone. As long as the evangelical believes in SA, he can rationalize almost anything. That’s not easy because of the idea of “soul liberty” among evangelicals, i.e., where does final authority lie? You’d have to dismantle that.
It’s like trying to take down a building when there are still people and furniture inside. You have to start with the inside first. And for OSAS, the inside is psychological self-manipulation. Once that is gone, the building comes down a lot quicker.
How is that done?
For me, it was simply looking at the lives of those who made claim to OSAS. Did the results match the claim? Everywhere I looked, it didn’t. All I saw was an emotional, but lazy Christianity that bore no fruit.
Years ago I was a Baptist pastor for a while. One of the challenges I would bring to Christians was “what does your Christianity look like? If Christianity were a raw material, what would it look like?” I didn’t know it at the time but I was talking about works.
It’s very easy to wave a Bible and preach OSAS.
It’s a lot harder to put your Bible down and do what is written therein, love one another.

Yes nice post lilrip1.

Hope you don’t mind but I’m going to swipe some of your ideas for our local men’s Bible group.

I esp. like what you pointed out about how objectors to the Catholic faith (some. Thankfully not all) whine “How can Mary possibly hear all those prayers of you Catholics? You must think of Mary as God-like.” Then these same guys turn around and quite naturally affirm and assert Satan has his evil “hand” in hurting their lives. Which forces you to wonder why these objectors give more power to Satan, (in their theological outlook), then to the Blessed Virgin Mary. And I as a Catholic have never accused them of making Satan “God-like” when they assert Satan hurting their lives.

Anyway. Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums (CAF).

God bless.

Cathoholic

I believe that many many protestants do not believe that a human being goes to heaven when they die, but rather are waiting on the final day when the resurrection will occur. Then it is that we will have people in heaven. So to many, we just fall asleep when we die and will wake up at Christ’s second comming or at Armmagedon.

So first they need to see that people are alive right now tho in a different state. Two good examples of this are the Transfiguration when Moses and Elias appeared on the mountain and were seen by Peter, James and John. The second example of this is when Jesus said that God is the God of the living and not of the dead which I think was said in reference to persons who had already died.

Praise to the Sacred Heart.

Love your questions but this one I am reminded of Startrek NG with the Borg. They were in groups able to understand each others thoughts as in a collective hive. To my knowledge, no one was protesting that this was just plain impossible for them to understand each other telepathically. But we are really dealing with the Body of Christ of which we are knit together through grace to each other in His body. Christ must know all all about Himself and it is logical to think that all parts of His body can communicate in Him which I believe is His will. The communication is for His divine providence and carries out His desires in His plan of our salvation. This makes sense to me. Resistance to this is futile.

Go right ahead for your Bible study, and thanks for the welcome! I suppose “God-like” wouldn’t be a good descriptor, since God does not hurt our lives. To me the understanding of Satan often comes close to “all-knowing and all-powerful,” without the “all-good,” but that can’t be true. He’s prowling about the Earth seeking the ruin of souls. The Saints typically only ever some close to “all-knowing” in Catholic discussions, and nowhere close to that in other discussions.

mdcpensive1

That’s exactly what we should be thinking during Communion!

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.