No Baptism, Where Do You Go?


#1

From The Baltimore Caatechism I found this:
154. Q. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?

A. Baptism is necessary to salvation, because without it we cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven.

Those who through no fault of theirs die without Baptism, though they have never committed sin, cannot enter Heaven neither will they go to Hell. After the Last Judgment there will be no Purgatory. Where, then, will they go? God in His goodness will provide a place of rest for them, where they will not suffer and will be in a state of natural peace; but they will never see God or Heaven. God might have created us for a purely natural and material end, so that we would live forever upon the earth and be naturally happy with the good things God would give us. But then we would never have known of Heaven or God as we do now. Such happiness on earth would be nothing compared to the delights of Heaven and the presence of God; so that, now, since God has given us, through His holy revelations, a knowledge of Himself and Heaven, we would be miserable if left always upon the earth. Those, then, who die without Baptism do not know what they have lost, and are naturally happy; but we who know all they have lost for want of Baptism know how very unfortunate they are.

Think, then, what a terrible crime it is to willfully allow anyone to die without Baptism, or to deprive a little child of life before it can be baptized! Suppose all the members of a family but one little infant have been baptized; when the Day of Judgment comes, while all the other members of a family-father, mother, and children-may go into Heaven, that little one will have to remain out; that little brother or sister will be separated from its family forever, and never, never see God or Heaven. How heartless and cruel, then, must a person be who would deprive that little infant of happiness for all eternity-just that its mother or someone else might have a little less trouble or suffering here upon earth.


Is this what you were taught? It is what I was taught, ha ha, I used the Baltimore Catechism.

The question is ; " Is there a name for this place which is not heaven nor hell." Vaguely I recall the name “Paradice” What is another name for it?


#2

If you die with only original sin, where do you go? Is that essentially your question? Actual sin condemns, as does original sin.

There’s more to it. Next

Well, I will add, that’s one of the grave errors of believer’s baptism only “Baptistic theology”. Think of how many babies they are barring from even having a chance of entering into heaven!!

Demonic and Criminal heresy!!

St. Augustine, writing to Pope Innocent III regarding how those at the council of Carthage judged against the Pelagians, what is called “Letter 175” he wrote:

They (the Pelagians) also say that little children do not have to be baptized to secure salvation, and thus, by this deadly doctrine, they bring eternal death upon them by promising that even though not baptized they will have everlasting life, because they do not belong to those of whom the Lord said:“For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.” They say that infants had not been lost, that there was nothing in them requiring salvation or redemption at such a price, because there was nothing depraved in them, nothing that held them captive under the power of the Devil, and that what we read about blood shed for the remission of sins does not apply to them… if anyone affirms that little children are not delivered from perdition by the baptism of Christ, thereby receiving eternal salvation, let him be anathema. Your reverence will, no doubt, pass this judgement. Pray for us, blessed lord and pope.

St. Augustine Letters, Volume 4.
translated by Sister Wilfrid Parsons, S.N.D.
The Fathers of the Church, A New Translation, Vol. 30
Fathers of the Church, Inc., New York 1955


#3

Let us not forget that there is Sacramental Baptism (by water) and there is also subsitutions thus defined by the Church so far as Baptism of Desire and Baptism by Blood. These were not defined by the Church at the same time. The latter two are not sacramental but still remove original sin. Who knows if more will be defined in the future?


#4

if one dies with original sin he goes to “hell” but may only recieve the pain of loss not the pain of sense—second council of Lyons… the council of Trent said that one can be in the state of grace by “baptism or the desire of…” so WATER baptism is not ABSOLUTLEY NECESSARY, BUT IT IS NORMATIVELY NECESSARY…


#5

Hi Ex__,

Here’s is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says:

**1261 **As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

Some theologians think that children who die without baptism enjoy a “natural happiness”, that is they do not see God “face to face”, but in his works, and they experience no sorrow or pain.

Additionally, there is no reason that they should be separated from us at the resurrection. If we live in the New Earth of which Revelation speaks, why should we not meet them? The beatific vision is interior, not exterior. Jesus enjoyed it while on earth.

Verbum


#6

From The “New” Baltimore Catechism,“Those who through no fault of their own, die without Baptism, though they have never committed sin, cannot enter Heaven neither will they go to Hell. After the Last Judgment there will be no Purgatory. Where, then, will they go? God in His goodness will provide a place of rest for them, where they will not suffer and will be in a state of natural peace; but they will never see God or Heaven”.

This was the teaching of Priests, Monseniors and Nuns before Vatican II produced the CCC in 1995. They even had a name for this place of natural peace, it was called “limbo”. I read 1261 of the new Catechism, as you quoted, I feel like it was addressing CHILDREN. From my reading of the Baltimore Catechism it too is addressing CHILDREN. Lets see what you quoted."
Quote:
**1261 **As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
!st, it says,“The Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God.” It is saying that we who are alive “will trust God to have mercy on the unbaptised dead children” . It DOES NOT say that God will allow them into heaven!

2ed. “Allow us to hope that there is a way”. This is a “feel good” statement. It does nothing. It is a HOPE of salvation, not an assurance of salvation.

Actually both the Baltimore Catechism and the New CCC say the same thing. I believe it says these innocents will not suffer hell, do you agree? Hey, Verbum thanks for your interest.


#7

if they die without baptism–water or baptism of desire they cannot be saved—but water baptism is not absolutly necessary --see trent’s decree on justification


#8

[quote=Exporter]Actually both the Baltimore Catechism and the New CCC say the same thing. I believe it says these innocents will not suffer hell, do you agree? Hey, Verbum thanks for your interest.
[/quote]

Yes, they say exactly the same thing, the newer Catechism just says it with a more “positive” viewpoint. It is important to remember when discussing this issue, that upon seeing older (official)statements such as “those who die without baptism descend into hell” such as that of the Council of Florence, the Latin term is infernus/infernum. In English it is always translated as “hell”, but the more correct translation would be “the place of the dead”. It can variously refer to Hell (proper), the *limbus patrum, limbus infantum, *or even Purgatory. The Church is not condemning these souls to everlasting punishment.


#9

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