No birth control? No fair! No Troll!


#1

If you have not already done so, please read my initial post at the bottom of this page.

First of all, I will admit that I wrote said initial post in a state of extreme agitation. I did not mean to insult anyone and I sincerely apologize for doing so. My mother had three surgeries before she could have me and my sister. Saying children are a “punishment” was inappropriate of me and I wish I could retract that statement.

I want to sincerely thank everyone who responded with charity instead of condemning me of being a bad Catholic, screaming that I shouldn’t get married at all, whining about their hurt feelings, or accusing me of being a troll. I am grateful for the links, videos, and articles from those Catholics out there who take the Golden Rule to heart and are not hypocrites when it comes to showing kindness to strangers. I came to this forum genuinely seeking help and I was extremely saddened by how many people attacked and judged me rather than offering charity; you have some serious praying to do and a lot more to learn about the teachings of Jesus.

Judging from the list of birthdays and ages on the main page of this site, it appears that most of the people in this forum are over age 30. I am 23, probably considered a child by most of you and a “petulant brat” by many. A few of you mentioned that I was probably never taught the true teachings of the Church, and you are correct. Most of my generation is ignorant of the truth, and not entirely through our own fault, as most of our parents and teachers don’t care or don’t have time to educate us. We young people are still suffering from the aftermath of the sexual revolution of the 1960s, the easy access to sin through the internet, and the utter lack of spiritual direction in our schools and churches. We are driven away from the Church thanks to mushy preaching, abysmal modern music, and self-righteous people who spew condescension and ridicule like many of you have done to me here. Perhaps many of you have forgotten what it is like to be young and easily influenced by the world. I forgive you, but I beg you to have more compassion with youngsters like myself in the future who are trying just as hard as you are to get to heaven.
I am not making excuses for my ignorance; in fact, I am doing everything I can to remedy it and learn more about my faith. If I was a “bad Catholic” and “unfit to marry” I wouldn’t have bothered to come to this forum in the first place, nor would I have asked total strangers for help. You see, therefore, how desperate I am for truth, and yet perhaps how foolish to seek it in such a place.

As for my fiance and me, we both practice our faith and attend the Latin Mass often. He is a good, kind, and holy man (though so many of you automatically assumed, again, that he is a deadbeat who just wants to get in my pants). I have endometriosis and thus have irregular cycles that are difficult to track. I also live right next door to THE Mayo Clinic and there is no one there or within a reasonable driving distance of me who can teach me NFP. Perhaps I should have mentioned these facts in my initial post, but it was uncalled for and downright rude for many of you to assume that I possess all the intelligence of a taxidermic woodchuck and am too lazy or too stupid to learn NFP. I am merely frustrated with the whole process and envy those folks who seemingly have it easier when it comes to planning their families.

If you will kindly note, I did ask for some kind person to explain to me the teachings of the Church; I didn’t just come here because I have a bone to pick with Catholic Morality. I thank those of you who responded kindly and without judgement. A faith that isn’t worth questioning worth practicing, and I am grateful to the few kind souls who allowed me to voice my concerns without eviscerating me.

This is the second and last time I will ever utilize this site. Congratulations on driving another young person away from the Church! I hope you will keep reading your Bibles and patting yourselves on the back.

INITIAL POST BELOW

Although my username has a man’s name, I am female. Sorry for the confusion

My fiance and I have been engaged for six months and want to get married in June 2017. However, the only thing holding us back is the fear of having children too soon that we wouldn’t be able to provide for. Our worst nightmare is being one of those couples who gets pregnant on our honeymoon and spends the next 32 years of our lives popping out kids with no time whatsoever for travel, vacation, or romance in general.

I am angry because other non-Catholic couples don’t have to worry about this: they just pop a pill or slip on a condom and have all the sex they want with no worries. They’re not punished with children before they even get their lives as a couple figured out.

I have tried learning NFP but it is just too complicated and my diocese has no one to teach me. I also think that NFP places an unfair burden on the woman since the whole procedure of taking temperature, checking mucus (how gross), etc. all falls on her and her alone. Not that the Pill with all its side effects is any better for the woman (I would personally never take it) but even condoms place at least some of the responsibility on the man.

I am tired of waiting to get married and I think it’s horribly unfair that the Church forces Catholic couples to suffer the emotional and financial burden of children right off the bat, while their Protestant and non-Christian friends take vacations, build their dream homes, and sip champagne while looking down on the harried 25-year old Catholic mom who is changing 60 diapers a day. Can someone please help me so I can make sense out of why the Church holds the position of no artificial birth control?


No birth control? No fair!
#2

Glad to hear you are not a troll. Venting is allowed, but always be aware that on an anonymous internet forum things will happen:

  1. you will get responses that aren’t to your liking, because people bring their own experiences to the table and what you’ve written might definitely offend them, resonate with them, or have no impact on them and you can’t predict which.

  2. Tone is difficult to interpret on the internet, both yours in your OP and responses that you’ve receive… Remember, you may be reading in harshness or judgment where there was none, or where someone was just trying to give you things to think about.

  3. YMMV. Yyou are going to get good answers, bad answers, correct answers and incorrect answers-- because you are asking totally anonymous people who may or may not know what the heck they are talking about to answer your questions.

  4. Even those of us who have been here forever have gotten dog piled or feelings hurt or whatever at some point. It’s the nature of the internet forum. Don’t take it personally! (by way of example, i’ll share that as a not-so-young but about to be married lady, I asked for some practical tips on NFP and got back post after post of why did I think I had a serious reason to avoid and maybe if I wanted/needed to avoid I shouldn’t get married, and all sorts of stuff that was NOT what I was asking-- it’s the nature of the beast. I could have been offended, but instead I just let the thread die b/c I didn’t need to defend my decisions. I should have known better than to start the thread in the first place, having been guilty of being on the other side of that coin so many times myself).

Regarding apologies, I don’t think anyone owes you one and I don’t necessarily think you owe anyone one. Although if there were any apologizing to do, I would say that you need to think about the fact that you have only one post here so we had absolutely NOTHING to go on as to motive, history, knowledge etc.

So, IOW, cut people some slack for responding not to what is in your head and heart but what is actually IN your post-- which had some pretty offensive statements in it regarding children.


#3

For NFP instruction.
Have you check with the Couple to Couple League?
They have teaching couple all around the country. My wife and I teach with them. I would be happy to help you out. They even have online live classes with a Teaching couple as well as online self pace video classes. There are plenty of option even it you don’t have a teaching couple living in your diocese.

You mentioned that you have endometriosis. Check out a NFP only provider or the Pope Paul Institute (www.popepaulvi.com/ ) There are Catholic acceptable treatments available to help you. I know several women who have struggled too long going from doctor to doctor for treatment and were only able to be fully satisfied once they received help from either the Pope Paul Institute or another good NFP only provider.

NFP when both taught and practiced properly involves both spouses and not just the wife. Yes, it does involve some work on your end and some scientific analysis but it really isn’t that hard once you learn it from a knowledgeable teaching couple.

Most people choose to allow God to bless them with children and use NFP to space out the children as needed. I have know couples who have also successfully used NFP to prevent children as needed due to several medical reasons. NFP does work and can also be just effective if not more than the BC pill. I also know several people who have gotten pregnant while on the BC pill. I also know several people who have received negative side effects because of the pill. NFP is a tool in living your live and marriage in union with Christ. Please consider re-focusing your thinking of looking at it as a burden.


#4

Please do not let that happen. In the long run, this site is not more than a few idiots squabbling and even often about irrelevant details with little practical relevance. Do not let this stand between you and Catholic church; remember, one of the greatest miracles is that somehow the Church is doing somewhat fine in light of how low quality their members are according to most standards of decency.

And in case you’re lets say lack of fondness of some Church teaching remains even after reading a lot of relevant stuff, remember that even if you have good reasons for thinking its wrong or faulty or its wrong or faulty what some people say, mine and your mind, brain and intellect is faulty, so probably we all will one day have to say in one waya or another “Sorry Lord, in my pride and error i did not get that, but i submit to you nonetheless.”

(It might be even likely that if we count whom of us two has more issues with Church teaching, it might be me; there is quite some stuff, were my first response and my response after long considerations and study is unaltering a “Got to be a joke, people must be fooling themselves to take it seriously”)

And whatever you do about the issue of contraception, sex and so on, always welcome any child with all the love you can muster, never ever abort, even if the number gets somewhat much beyond your actual preference.


#5

If you were extremely agitated, it should be no surprise that you got extreme agitation back. You** still **seem extremely agitated, especially given the last part of your new post. :shrug:

I’m a year older than yourself, but I can assure you that if you actually commit to being open to life in each and every marital act you will eventually pity those whom you currently envy…

When you look in your children’s eyes in 5, 10, 20 years, ask yourself if it was worth being open to life rather than cutting it off. The answer should be clear even now.

We squishy millennials are extremely selfish, aren’t we. Consider that marriage is an act of worship of God and of service to one’s spouse and to the community in which you live… This is part of why God is not a fan of contraception. And your friends who have “consequence free” sex are going to find that out sooner or later, either in contrition in this life or on the Day of Judgment. Not only will following the natural law tend towards your benefit during life, but also after death. Imagine that - God wants to bless us a lot for following His laws!

You should consider having a discussion with your pastor about your feelings and your readiness to enter such a serious state of life while still having those feelings. Being so averse to the actual meaning of marriage itself, combined with a precipitous attitude, may be a clue to slow down. But maybe not. I don’t know, you need to see someone “IRL.”

As for the teaching of the Church, it is clear that contraception is gravely contrary to the good of marriage, and nothing justifies its use (when actually being used as a means of preventing pregnancy from one’s own free acts). God created our bodies with an order, and contraceptive acts destroy the order by manipulating or impeding the tools designed by God for that order to reach its end, namely procreation (union too, in a sense).


#6

I’m going to put this as kindly as I can, so please do not read any ill-will into this post.

The simplest way of explaining it is that it disrupt’s God’s plan for human sexuality. The primary purpose of sex is procreation, the fact that it is pleasurable is a gift from God. Unfortunately, in our society the procreative aspect has been usurped by the pleasurable aspect, and sex is treated as a recreation first, procreation second.

(Again, please don’t read this as me being mean, this isn’t directed at you personally.)

The use of sex just for pleasure, ignoring the procreative aspect of it, is a selfish use of God’s gift to us. You are taking something which God has given a married couple to truly and wholly join them together and through which He allows us to take part in His act of creation, and reducing it down to an animalistic carnal pleasure. You are taking the single most intimate act imaginable, and putting a barrier between you and your spouse, and refusing to accept God’s will for your lives. That last bit is the most basic reason why the Church condemns the use of contraceptives, because it contradict’s God’s design, and prevents the body from functioning properly.

I highly suggest reading the Theology of the Body. It will give you a new appreciation for human sexuality.


#7

Something that may help. If you have trouble accepting a teaching think of it as a teaching of Jesus. Saying something is a Church teaching is perfectly fine if you understand that Jesus and His Church are One and the Same. Unfortunately those who dissent turn to protestantism’s example and separate Jesus from His Church and reduce the teachings to ‘rules’ that they don’t have to follow.


#8

No, none of what was said to you should drive you away from the church. As others have said, you gave attitude, you got attitude, and now you continue to do it.

People mentioned NFP through your diocese, not THE Mayo Clinic. No, they are not going to teach you that. Ask at your parish, email your diocese, someone will help you if you keep asking, if it matters to you.


#9

If your just interested in following rules then see your priest. You may be able to get a medical exemption for ABC because of your endometriosis. I see a couple of stones have been thrown at you already in this new thread.

If your not a rule follower then follow your conscience. You seem to know more about the Kerygma than some people here who “know all the rules”. Don’t blame the people who “didn’t catechize” you. There was a reason you were taught the way you were.


#10

I read all these responses and please I am not stating my opinion either way. But the reference to animals would be one I heard and read about so many times. Very few animals, and only accepted dolphins and apes actually do have sex for pleasure. The argument a protestant can raise would be that sex for procreation do indeed equal animalistic tendencies, as that would be an animalistic instinct. Animals are the best example of just to procreate in how they would act. That is how they are and can not think further of what it means. So please don’t compare contracepting Protestants to animals. That is just mean!


#11

See the answers given in your first thread.


#12

My goodness. Where to begin with what is wrong with this advice.

The letter is for the sake of the spirit. Hopefully whoever is responsible for pastoring this woman’s soul knows that.

There is no medical exemption for artificial birth control, in terms of actually trying to prevent conception from freely committed sex acts. Ever.

No stones have been thrown at the OP.

Conscience IS A RULE.

Conscience must be conformed to the truth, which is what the OP says she’s come for.

The claim that the OP knows “more about the Kerygma” is an extremely rash judgment on others participating in this thread, and the suggestion that loving God is an alternative to following the moral law is contradicted by almost every page of Scripture.

The people who should have taught the OP these things and failed to do so are indeed to blame in large part for the OP having these questions.


#13

There’s a very good secular book about NFP called Taking Charge of Your Fertility. I had a horrid experience using contraception (multiple kinds) and found out about NFP from non-religious sources. Then the Church teaching started making sense to me.

Really, it’s not liberating or freeing for women to feel like we have to shut off a working part of our bodies so we can live life. And when it’s not working, it’s insulting to have some medical professionals shove pills in your face and not show interest in fixing the real problem.


#14

Catechism:

1652 "By its very nature the institution of marriage and married love is ordered to the procreation and education of the offspring and it is in them that it finds its crowning glory."162

Children are the supreme gift of marriage and contribute greatly to the good of the parents themselves. God himself said: “It is not good that man should be alone,” and “from the beginning [he] made them male and female”; wishing to associate them in a special way in his own creative work, God blessed man and woman with the words: “Be fruitful and multiply.” Hence, true married love and the whole structure of family life which results from it, without diminishment of the other ends of marriage, are directed to disposing the spouses to cooperate valiantly with the love of the Creator and Savior, who through them will increase and enrich his family from day to day.163


#15

I’d recommend reading “Three to Get Married”, by Fulton J. Sheen, it’s a very good book, and might help you to understand marriage better. Now, I see how your first post could indicate a lack of knowledge about two of the ends of marriage (procreation and raising of children), and that can actually mean your marriage isn’t valid if you don’t know what you’re getting into, which is a very messy situation. At the worst it could spell doom for you, or your husband (spouses are accountable for the state of each others soul), or any of your children.

Marriage is a lifelong commitment that provides graces in abundance and can be a great aid in sanctification for you and your new family. But if you don’t really understand what you’re signing up for, and can’t put these graces to their proper use, it can just as easily become a living nightmare. Isn’t it better someone say “You aren’t ready for marriage” now rather than let you find out for yourself? Look at it this way: if you truly are ready for marriage, then that assessment will be easily seen for exactly what it is: A cursory assessment based off one or two paragraphs you wrote on the internet, and it shouldn’t even give you pause to think. But if, deep down, you think you’re getting in over your head on this one and don’t fully understand the commitment you’re making… it might cause you grief and give you pause. Which doesn’t mean don’t get married. Just be sober about it.


#16

scepterpublishers.org/collections/marriage-and-family/products/three-to-get-married


#17

There is a NFP class around 50 miles from you–that’s not all that far (takes about an hour to get there). Classes begin on January 17. For details, just cut and paste–http://register.ccli.org/?utf8=✓&search=&zoom=9&center_latitude=44.0780552&center_longitude=-92.5098914&criteria[course_type]=main&criteria[language]=en&criteria[location_type][]=none&criteria[location_type][]=on-site&criteria[location_type][]=virtual&criteria[location_type][]=online&criteria[country]=US&criteria[state]=&criteria[postal_code]=55901&criteria[distance]=50


#18

I’m going to start by admitting that I cannot really relate to your post and have a hard time understanding much of it. While we did not get pregnant on our honeymoon we did have our first child eleven months after we were married. Fear of not being able to provide for a child did not even enter our minds, nor did the idea that we needed time to travel, vacation and romance without kids. We got married because we wanted to spend our lives together and start a family–not because we wanted to have sex and travel the world. We wanted to be a family not a couple.

As I said I find it very hard to relate to your post. I can’t even understand the mindset that could see having children as an emotional or financial burden. More car than you need and can afford is a financial burden, as is a new car every couple of years. More house than you need and can afford is a financial burden. And the financial stresses that we can heap upon ourselves trying to get newer, bigger and better possessions–the trying to keep up with the Jones is what leads to the financial and emotional stresses. I’d much rather have a smaller paid for home than my “dream” house burdening me with a very large mortgage payment that I have to meet each month. To date I have found children to be a great blessing bringing a joy and love that far outweighs the challenges they can also bring. I have also found that children can grow up (We have five ages 26 down to 9) and be well adjusted without having their own room, computer, all the latest electronic gadgets, designer clothes, car etc. And that they can handle stress much better than we give them credit for. The summer after our first daughter completed college my wife had to stop working taking away 2/3 of our income–not only could we not continue to pay for college but we had to radically trim expenses and “lifestyle” to make the mortgage payment. It was a crazy time, but my daughter was able to get some grant money due to our income change and she had to takeout some student loans she would not otherwise have had to have, but it all worked out. And our 26, 23 and 18 year old’s are pretty well adjusted especially compared to the melt downs and inability to cope I see in so many others their age. Two more to go and I pray that they too will grow up to be well adjusted adults–our 9 year old is proving to be the most challenging of all the children so far (figures doesn’t it).

We’ve known other school parents who take a vacation without the kids, but my wife and I have always found it strange–we couldn’t imagine taking a week long vacation without the kids. Our family vacations are what have built memories and bound our family closer together. We often vacation with extended family: my parents, sisters, aunt and uncle and cousins–we did an annual family vacation starting in 1981 and over time it’s grown to include our spouses and children. The last two summers are the first two that we weren’t able to do it and all my children and my cousins children missed it terribly and they actually took the bull by the horns and next summer the tradition will continue. It’s our annual vacation and my kids would rather do that than a fancy vacation somewhere.

Our faith is counter cultural and it should give you direction and guidance regarding what is really important in the world and it should help you to live out those values in jpy and peace. Nothing should be able to drive you from the Church–not bad music, not bad preaching, not self-righteous people (you might go back and reread both of your posts and consider how the tone of them might have come across to others before casting stones), etc. if you understand what the Church is and what you find there–i.e. you find the Church Christ founded, apostolic succession and the protection of truth not to mention the sacraments–especially the Eucharist. How could anything drive you away from that? You need to attempt to see Christ in everyone around you at Mass and realize that they took the time to come–that in some way Christ has called them–give them time to grow in their faith and conform their lives to Christ–just as you expect them to see Christ in you and to give you time to grow and mature in your faith and in holiness. All you can control is your attitude and actions towards others–nothing else. I no longer worry about how others treat me and I try very hard not to let it affect how I treat them–I try to act how I believe my faith requires me to act regardless. You need to remember that everyone around you at Mass is also a sinner in need of forgiveness–try praying for them instead of being offended and claiming they drove you from the Church–your attitude and pride are the only things that can drive you from the Church–please don’t let them.

I’ve never regretted having children “right off the bat” --no it was one of the best things we ever did and it was simply the most amazing thing I have ever been a part of. At 54 I have come to realize that what my grandparents had is really what’s important and what I want–a small house that was a place of love and acceptance where a large extended family always gathered and felt welcomed. Finding out how to achieve that will serve you much better and bring you greater joy and peace than will fancy vacations, luxury cars and a “dream” house.

Let your dreams and aspirations be guided by the Gospel and the Church and not by the world–if you do that you will find joy and peace in this world and the next.

The peace of Christ,
Mark


#19

I thank those of you who responded kindly and without judgement. A faith that isn’t worth questioning worth practicing, and I am grateful to the few kind souls who allowed me to voice my concerns without eviscerating me.

Here you are grateful that people were not judging you, and treated you kindly.

This is the second and last time I will ever utilize this site. Congratulations on driving another young person away from the Church! I hope you will keep reading your Bibles and patting yourselves on the back.

And here you are judging people harshly and treating them awfully.

Double standard.

Maybe it is time for you to practice what you preach and actually not be so harsh?


#20

I don’t think she meant to address everyone, she specified those that did not judge her and those who did.

If you are still there Vic, know that you are not strange or that something is wrong with you because only a minority of people here can relate to you. Wanting a dream house, nice cars, or nice vacations isn’t wrong and does not make you selfish just because others here chose differently. What will have to change, if you want to continue following Catholic standards, is the way you embrace Church teachings. While you are not required to completely understand the teachings (I honestly still do not), you are expected to be humbly obedient. The greatest thing, in my opinion, is that the Church does not specify what just reasons are for couples who use NFP. That is left between the couple and God to decide. There is no set number of children required by the Church, nor any set number required to make you more holy.

Personally, I think if time alone as a couple would be beneficial to strengthening a marriage (which is important for any future children), then NFP is perfectly fine. :shrug: Other people might simply consider it a luxury for THEIR lives and THEIR particular marriage but thank goodness they don’t hold the weight of the Magisterium.


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