Here is one physician’s point of view.
That’s good to hear. I wish there was more demand, I really do, but I just don’t see it. Talk is cheap. Where I live now and where I used to live, the TLM was available within reasonable convenience so if anyone wanted to go to one, they could easily go. The fact is, relatively speaking, not many do. By that standard, the percentage of the folks in the diocese who are demanding it are only in the single digit percentages.
Now, I realize also, there are some places where whatever demand there is, is not being met at all. But, where I have lived, there has been a surplus of supply.
I posted the article linked in this thread.
I’m in my forties, and have discussed the new mass versus the latin mass with literally thousands of Catholics, in my practice, online and elsewhere. My own “study” certainly isn’t scientific, and it is only representative of my own experience, but I find, consistently, that one quarter to one third of Catholics express interest in attending the Traditional Latin Mass, even if not weekly.
On what concrete facts do you base your assertion to the contrary?
I don’t think there is an even distribution of TLM devotees in the US.
For instance, Pgh Pa is a hot bed of them. Rochester NY appears to be just the opposite.
Dallas TX is somewhere in between. The whole of N Mex is a desert in TLM not just the weather.
Chicago is loaded and believe it or not little old Tyler TX, a Bible Belt buckle, is loaded and supports a whole FSSP parish.
Birmingham AL is a loaded. Phoenix is in between.
The fact that the total attendees of the TLM in my diocese don’t add up to the amount of parioushers at one NOM at one parish.
I didn’t know that about Tyler but should not be surprised. The Bishop there seems real solid. Where there are good bishops who support orthodoxy in liturgy and in theology, in my experience, you get more open support of the TLM. I live in a diocese with a different history. For almost 20 years our Bishop was openly hostile to the TLM. He allowed one Mass per week and one additional Latin NO Mass. Letters requesting a more “generous” permission for the Indult were either ignored or the writer was told to stop writing. So we have one lightly attended Mass in a bad location but have a growing SSPX population.
In my own tiny parish, I can count out at least 20 people (without asking around) who would go to a 1962 Mass if one was offered. That sounds like a tiny amount but 2 out of three of our regular Masses only have about 40 or 50 attendees most Sundays. But none of us have written the Bishop or made a loud cry. Now these 20 don’t go to the Indult Mass - it is too far. So, if the Bishops use Indult attendance as an indicator of “demand”, they are way off in their count.
Even if you accept the “single digit” estimates, there are many parishes around here with thousands of registered families. With 3-4 people per family and only 5% interested in the TLM, that would be 150 people per thousand registered families.
Personally, I would love it if there was even just one Mass per deanery each Sunday. That would ensure that no one had to travel far and wouldn’t unduly strain the work load of the pastors who are mostly solo priests per parish around here. Even using very conservative numbers of “demand” or “interest”, there would be no trouble filling those Masses.
OTOH, getting enough trained altar servers might be a challenge.
I have to agree with what some others have said. I was surprised when I started going to the TLM that the attendance was so small…even on Sundays. I thought the church would be packed ot overflowing. It is barely half full and we are a good sized town.
As I have said, we have only one TLM in our whole diocese. Many people who would love to go can’t because it is very far and very early. But I think TLM “fans” are also likely to be some of the more “involved” members of their parishes. Almost all of the people I know who would appreciate a TLM are parents of school age children. Our kids have CCE on Sundays and/or are altar servers. Going to another Church hours away just isn’t practical. I guess we won’t really know until the TLM is a viable, regular option for most people.
At the Pittsburgh TLM there are many in attendance. At times almost standing room only.
If you get there early and wait for confession you can see the people leave the Pauline Mass that is celebrated between the two TLMs. Today the Pauline Mass had only a few people at it. All ages of people in shorts, tube tops, flip flops (and a few in skirts.) But, then the regatta was in town and many people had other places to go after Mass.
Then you see the people enter for the TLM and you see suits on men, dresses, skirts and a few women in modest pant suits. Almost of the women were covered. It just amazes me the difference in dress.
Kathleen, you’re making me jealous!
I am jealous too. I wish there was a TLM close enough to attend. Hopefully with the MP—but will see how it works out.
You’re in the great state of Texas, and you don’t have a TLM to go to??? What’s up? :shrug:
Closest TLM is approx 3 hr. drive one way. That is the wide and generous implementation down here.
That’s the distance for me too. I go once a month to the FSSP in Calgary. Going next Sunday. Leave here at 8 AM, Mass is at noon.
We have been considering taking the drive to the TLM. Up to now --it has not been feasible–but around August it may work out.
I’m right in the middle of Texas Trad Territory… TTT.
I ain’t leavin, even if I die.
You have to understand Texas. In some places it’s a 2hr drive to the next stop light which is also the next town.
It’s been my observation (strictly personal and unscientific ) that the areas where the demand for the TLM is often the greatest is in areas where there is a lot of unorthodoxy in the NO. These are often the dioceses with TLM-unfriendly bishops, no surprise.
In areas where the bishops freely grant the TLM, the NO masses tend to be much better. And in those places you really don’t see much of a demand.
I think Catholics in general want some Latin in their mass (Sanctus, Agnus Dei, Gloria, possibly Credo, and the Kyrie in Greek), better music, incense, more beautiful churches with more traditional architecture, but they aren’t clamoring for a return to the TLM.
I wonder if age and experience has something to do with it (demand or lack of), too; in several ways not all of them obvious.
My late 98 year old father, for instance, for most of his life experienced the Latin Mass. However, after approx 30 or so years of no exposure, he forgot everything and when I would take him (because he DID enjoy it), later in his life, to a TLM, he had trouble following it, didn’t understand what was going on (he had no dementia issues so that was not involved) and had to be completely ‘re-educated’ as to the rituals, vestments, meanings of things, etc. For those of us a bit younger - 60’s and such - many of us actually remember the Latin Mass, we were choir members, altar servers, knew Latin and I think we are the majority, by and large, that long for the TLM to be available.
Then there are the younger people (30-50 years old). Among this group, one has to be dedicated to self-education and learning to become familiar with the TLM and to involve oneself. This is good; don’t get me wrong; just that my experience is that not many go to these lengths but just go along to get along. It’s also true of this age group that they have been exposed to so much irreverence, liturgical abuse and ‘dumbing down’ of the Mass that many have lost interest altogether. Their catechesis has also been astoundingly bad because of the atmosphere of relativism and free-form theology they have been taught.
Really younger people (teens - 30’s), in my experience, are on either end (the majority of them) of a pretty wide spectrum and not many in the middle. They are either the ‘new’ (JPII) Catholics and dedicated to learning their faith, returning to meaningful rituals and symbols and insisting on reverence in their worship - OR - they are completely disinterested and have no desire to go to any Mass, much less worry about which one to go to.
I’ve oversimplified a tad to keep this from getting too long, but my overall points are valid from my own experience and questioning of people.
I think the demand for the TLM is affected a lot by these things. It’s not like the reintroduction of the TLM is happening 1 week after Vatican II ended. Many years have passed and much water has gone under the bridge - and most, I think, have ‘adjusted’ all too well (unfortunately).
The demand for the TLM will only be large if the numbers are large of those who miss it, remember it or have educated themselves about it and see it as something that would really be to their liking and benefit.
I think the ‘ready made’ group seeking / waiting for the TLM is an illusion. I think this is what many of us expected - that there were all these people (the ‘demand’) out there, ready-made, just waiting for this.
The truth is that even though many were disatisfied with the worship/liturgy they had access to, they stopped there.
I hope the demand for the TLM will be like many things of this nature…not immediately there, but definitely picking up with time and growing into a vibrant community. A large demographic is not waiting, but I think one can be ‘raised from the ashes’, so to speak, over time and the love of the TLM renewed. I hope I’m not wrong.
I worry more about those able to deliver on it. How many priests these days know Latin anymore? How many ‘agendas’ are there really out there? I don’t like the answers I receive to those questions when I ask around. I hope the answers are wrong.
The support for the TLM here in Phoenix is growing significantly. After we recieved our new Bishop all of a sudden there’s a TLM in town!
Bishop Olmstead has elevated the TLM community to missions status named “Mater Misericordiae” and named a pastor, with a goal of it becoming a parish.
He just nominated a new Church to have an indult mass (that makes three), the other two offer daily Tridentine masses in addition to sundays.
The indult mass I attend is fairly busy, about the same as any other mass on sunday; not packed but very healthy.
I trully feel for those who do not have the same opportunities that I have in attending a TLM, but in honesty I do say a prayer for them that they may share in what I’m blessed to have.